D&D 5E Feelings on Ranged Damage

Saelorn said:

I took that feat for my halfling rogue, when I jumped into the last few sessions of a PotA game, because I didn't want to drag the party down. It was almost a non-factor, though, because it turns out that the ancient masters who created the magic weapons in the setting never got around to making many magical hand crossbows. To contrast, they were way into daggers and shortswords.

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THis I don't think there is a magical hand crossbow in any of he WoTC AP's.

If the argument had been that melee rogues did more damage because magic melee weapons are easier to find in APs, I wouldn't have jumped in the thread. I haven't played any of them. Now that I'm here, I'd agree that seems like a problem in APs or in campaigns that use exclusively random loot drops. The AT can pick up the magic weapon spell at 8th level, but it would still be sucky to build a character around a weapon of which you'll never see a magical version (in a game where magical weapons are otherwise the norm).

Edit: Does magical ammunition also not show up in these games? I've never used the random loot tables, but it looks like it would start dropping sooner than the magical weapons.

It's weird that the ancient masters never enchanted the squirrel-shooters given that they're the most effective personal weapons in the known world, with a bit of training, but maybe the problem is that the semiautomatic firing mechanism is newfangled technology.

I've come to the conclusion that characters that are built around ranged weapons are boring. Being at range will lead to less attacks targeting the character and therefore less suspense. Magic users have a resource management mini-game to balance when choosing which spell. But a bow character doesn't really worry about which arrow to use.

This also true in the lore that inspires D&D. Bow characters inevitably get drawn into much more interesting melee combat. Swashbuckling sword play is just as much a part of Robin Hood movies as longbow trick shots. Legolas does knife work in the LotR books and dramatically skates on a shield in the movies. Trying to make archery interesting in movies can lead to some contrived scenes just so that the viewer doesn't get bored.


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DerekSTheRed said:

Trying to make archery interesting in movies can lead to some contrived scenes just so that the viewer doesn't get bored.

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One of the reasons I look for dramatic "story" function rather than realism. The suspension of disbelief is so much more appealing than the real thing. Consider the most efficient archery units in the world were Persians who would ride up and U-turn on strategic points of elevation in order to deliver a volley of arrows. By the time the arrows landed throughout the ranks of their enemies, they would average 700 to 750 meters distance from their target. The charge of heavy cavalry was intended to trample infantry to death. This was a "tech" advance of the Roman infantry units who would close ranks around the enemy, and then using their shields as a barricade, they would force opponents prone and then stomp them to death under iron-shod boots. The defense of Greece by the Spartans was by using a narrow point and shield wall to bottle up the enemy where multiple ranks could coordinate spear attacks like the blades of a food processor. Our romanticized view of the heroic is nothing new. It is probably as old as the campfire. And really, even a Cretin enjoys The Princess Bride, Lord of the Rings, Robin Hood, and Zoro.

Greg Benage said:

Edit: Does magical ammunition also not show up in these games? I've never used the random loot tables, but it looks like it would start dropping sooner than the magical weapons.

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If it does, then it tends to show up in the form of arrows. Even if crossbow bolts do show up, they're unlikely to be sized for a hand crossbow.

Greg Benage said:

It's weird that the ancient masters never enchanted the squirrel-shooters given that they're the most effective personal weapons in the known world, with a bit of training, but maybe the problem is that the semiautomatic firing mechanism is newfangled technology.

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In the Forgotten Realms, at least, we do have general guidelines for this sort of thing. Since the different game editions correspond directly to specific years within the setting, we know that (for example) spiked chains were invented prior to 2E but never really caught on until the 3E years. It was difficult to enchant items prior to 3E, in that nobody even really knew how, and hand crossbows were not popular during the 3E years when enchanting was easy. The only ones who used hand crossbows prior to that were Drow, and their equipment disintegrated in sunlight.

Basically, the availability of different magical items in the Forgotten Realms should correspond roughly to how popular those items were in 3E, since that was when they were probably made. You should find mostly rapiers, greatsword, spiked chains, and longbows; you shouldn't find spears, halberds, or any type of crossbow.

Edit: Don't shoot squirrels. Squirrels are our friends.

Saelorn said:

If it does, then it tends to show up in the form of arrows. Even if crossbow bolts do show up, they're unlikely to be sized for a hand crossbow.

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Interesting. Is that a house rule? The DMG doesn't appear to differentiate between bolts and arrows, let alone bolts sized for different weapons. As such, there is no method offered for determining whether magical ammunition would be arrows, bolts, or particular-sized bolts. Rarity is determined entirely by the magic bonus of the ammunition.

Looks to me as though magic ammunition shows up in tables B (+1), C (+2), and D (+3). The arrow of slaying shows up on Table E. The description states that it can also be a bolt of slaying, "though arrows are most common." Again, no method suggested to determine this randomly, but the distinction between ammunition types makes the lack of one for "ammunition" conspicuous.

Magical weapons make their first appearance on Table F.

Greg Benage said:

Interesting. Is that a house rule? The DMG doesn't appear to differentiate between bolts and arrows, let alone bolts sized for different weapons. As such, there is no method offered for determining whether magical ammunition would be arrows, bolts, or particular-sized bolts. Rarity is determined entirely by the magic bonus of the ammunition.

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Does the DMG differentiate between armor sized for a halfling and armor sized for a half-orc? The rules shouldn't need to tell us something, for us to know that it's the case. I know that if the elf archer ran out of arrows, and I offered some bolts from my hand crossbow, that probably wouldn't go over too well with anyone at the table.

As for rolling randomly, I guess they just expect the DMG to make a decision at some point. This edition doesn't really go in for sub-tables. If a DM can reasonably be expected to make a judgment call on what type of weapon +1 shows up, after rolling that, then it's equally reasonable for them to make a judgment call for ammunition +1.

Whithers said:

I am wondering if anyone else has considered ways to make the ranged character more effective/dramatic for story purposes instead of just someone who plinks in order to slowly edge the target toward kill-able for someone else.

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My homebrew solution is that the standard ranger build for archer-type rangers is 5 Ranger (hunter)/ 7 Rogue (assassin) after level 12 there is a bit more variety (an extra level of ranger for Greater favored enemy, up to 6 more levels of ranger for the Volley, an extra level of rogue for an ASI, 2 levels of fighter for action surge, or up to 8 levels of druid, wizard or sorcerer for spell casting.

At Level 8 you pretty much can have everything you would want for an archer Ranger 5 /Rogue 3 with sharpshooter. High burst, and sustained ranged damage. With a good poison nothing in your level range can survive a surprise round. hunters mark + sneak attack + autocrit + poison plus a second attack and most likely initiative on the next round...

With 2 levels of fighter at level 14, a surprise attack with action surge, all crits will deflate even bloated 200hp monsters in a single round.

So the standard Ranger hunter conclave in my world teaches starting 3 levels of rogue with survival, nature, stealth and perception (pick two for expertise) then do 5 levels of ranger the the other 4 levels of rogue Since these are Ranger run schools thief tools gets traded out for herbalism. This simulates apprentice rangers learning to hunt game and do quick ranged take downs. For PCs this means that they have a few levels to figure out the world and pick a relevant full-flavor favored enemy.

Of course Rangers being a naturally independent and freedom loving group, there is nothing to say that some can't start ranger. If they do they usually go 5 levels of ranger then rogue. But in my world there aren't any Hunter Rangers with more than 11 levels of ranger. There is no reason for it.

What I like about my solution is minimal rule changes (thief tools=>herbalism), and Ranger becomes a class of total awesomeness.

Saelorn said:

Does the DMG differentiate between armor sized for a halfling and armor sized for a half-orc? The rules shouldn't need to tell us something, for us to know that it's the case. I know that if the elf archer ran out of arrows, and I offered some bolts from my hand crossbow, that probably wouldn't go over too well with anyone at the table.

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I've always assumed since 1980 that (most) magical armor resizes for the wearer. If it doesn't, wow, that nerfs nonhuman races far worse than the ambiguous rules on magical ammunition nerfs Crossbow Expert in campaigns using random loot drops.

As for rolling randomly, I guess they just expect the DMG to make a decision at some point. This edition doesn't really go in for sub-tables. If a DM can reasonably be expected to make a judgment call on what type of weapon +1 shows up, after rolling that, then it's equally reasonable for them to make a judgment call for ammunition +1.

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Yeah, I think it's an easy call. I wouldn't expect a DM to make the call with the objective of denying magical ammunition to the Crossbow Expert in his group, but I accept that your experience may differ. I'd likely play a human with as little equipment dependency as possible in such a game, if I played at all. As a DM, I'd reassess my table rules if I suspected players were limiting their character choices based on the way I handed out loot.

To sum up, though, I agree that a Crossbow Expert rogue will likely do less damage than a melee TWFing rogue in games that use random loot drops and in which the DM makes judgment calls with the objective of excluding magic crossbow bolts. In all other games, the CE rogue will do more damage because 2*(1d6+Dex mod) at ranges from 5 ft. to 120 ft. is better than (1d6+Dex mod) + (1d6) at ranges out to 5 ft.

Greg Benage said:

I've always assumed since 1980 that (most) magical armor resizes for the wearer. If it doesn't, wow, that nerfs nonhuman races far worse than the ambiguous rules on magical ammunition nerfs Crossbow Expert in campaigns using random loot drops.

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I have played both ways. When I started armor, etc. did not resize for the convenience of game play. It was pretty easy to tell when the DM had put treasure in for a member of the party to use and when it was merch fodder. I didn't encounter the resizing rules til I came back and everything was 3.5. It occurs to me that a more modular approach could be useful. Will have to start a new thread.