D&D 4E Essentials isn't 4.5e, but is 4e as we know it over?

[The Little Raven]

I would hate like hell to be a "3rd party" company who is tying their success to "Essentials" being fully compatible with whatever they currently have in production.

I wouldn't. But, then again, I know that Essentials is fully compatible, because they've said it a number of times.

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Beyond Essentials ...)

As I discussed last month, the Essentials line of products consists of 10 key products that will always be in stock and will form the core of the Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game experience moving forward. Each product is designed to provide a more streamlined, more directed, and less expensive experience for the user. These products don’t replace the existing Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, or Monster Manual. They represent a separate pathway into the game. These 10 key products come out throughout the months of September, October, November, and December.

In January, 2011, our new front list products begin rolling out, providing expanded game options and materials for all players. We’re going to continue to use the lessons we learned from Essentials while applying the innovation and design we’re known for. You’ll see options for players that include new power sources, new class and race options, and even more universal options that work with the material you’re already playing with. For Dungeon Masters, options will include new campaign elements, new monsters, new tools to help plan and run the game, and more. These products will include our traditional formats, but you’ll also see new formats as well. There’s exciting things coming for D&D, and we’ll get more and more into this topic as the year progresses.

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Wizard Preview)

Not a New Edition

No matter how I write the words or how many times I say it, confusion abounds. Must just be the nature of the internet, I guess. Well, here I go again …

The Dungeons & Dragons Essentials products are fully compatible with the rest of the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game. The rules of the game are the same as those featured in the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide. The presentation is new, rewritten for clarity and friendliness. The format of the product is new, using boxed sets and digest-sized paperbacks instead of hardcover books. We’re incorporating any rules updates that have come along since the release of the new edition in 2008.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I wouldn't. But, then again, I know that Essentials is fully compatible, because they've said it a number of times.

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Beyond Essentials ...)



Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Wizard Preview)

Yes, yes, sure, but won't it be a new edition that replaces the existing Core Books?

 

[Jack99]

Yes, yes, sure, but won't it be a new edition that replaces the existing Core Books?

I have heard that despite what they say, it will be a new edition. My grand-cousin's nephew works for a big FLGS, and hensays this is definitely WotC gearing up for 5e.


Sigh

 

[UngeheuerLich]

@MM not 100% compatible:

when you compare MM1 and MM2 of D&D 3.0, you notice monster design has improved a lot. It seems that designing monsters is the most difficult part of creating an edition, because when understanding of the system improves, monsters are getting weaker and weaker... also what sounds fun on paper may be boring afer a while, even when it was quite exiting in playtesting...

@ new essential line beeing a revised edition:

of course it is, otherwise they wouldnßt have to state it all the time when they clearly lie at every opportunity...

i hope they didn´t change a lot in the last weeks because of nerdrage like they did in the initial release... this nerdrage has cost us a lot of nice features... the best thing to do for designers seems to be /ignore the internet...

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I am doubtful of this. I think even within Essentials, most of those details will remain absolutely the same across classes. There may be the occasional one that works different - as with Psionics, as with whatever Essentials class might do different things with dailies - but I don't think we are going to see the entire system tossed out. I don't think we'll see anyone gaining powers at different levels.

Now that I've seen the Wizard preview, I'm inclined to agree with you. Although, the implication when they said they were getting rid of Dailies for some classes and that some powers would not have levels associated with them that some classes might gain at-wills or encounters at a different rate than other classes.

Either way, the class features appear to be extra encounter powers that you get at different levels, so in a way...some classes DO get powers at different levels.

I think the chance of the old classes being 'worse' than the new ones, or rendered obsolete in any way, is pretty much nonexistent. We might present new players just with Essentials due to ease of use, but most players will select from both old and new without any hesitation, going with whatever fits their character concept the best.

Maybe. So far the new classes don't looks more powerful. However, they FEEL more like a 2e class than the rest of the classes in 4e so far. They feel slightly more flavorful(Wizards who specialize in Evocation as opposed to "I use a wand"). Given their complete compatibility with old powers, the new Wizard certainly seems like the one I'd play if given the choice.

They also appear to get Encounter powers as well as Dailies in their spell books, 3 at-will powers at first level(given, one of them HAS to be magic missile), and a class feature we don't know what it does. It also gains new class features as it goes up levels which the old Wizard doesn't.

It does seem better.

I think the comparison to the MM situation is a flawed one. The MM3 monsters actively use updated math to fix an existing problem (and there are guidelines to easily update any MM1 or MM2 monsters.) Essentials isn't "fixing" the PHB classes. Perhaps in one or two very minor ways, but it is mostly just presenting them in a clearer and simpler fashion to make them more accessible to new players.

I believe it is changing the "feel" of how classes are built. So far all the previews have shown that all the new classes get class features at higher level than first. I think this is a "fixing" of the class structure. They appear to have done this because (as they admit in a couple of columns) they had a lot of complaints that all the classes were too similar because of the class structure. If Warpriests are the only ones who get the ability to resurrect as a class feature and Wizards are the only ones who get the ability to put spells in a spellbook, it helps to keep the classes feeling different. It also helps to feel like you are getting better at your own class if you gain new class features as you go up.

I think the designers have learned a lot about what people want in the last couple of years as well as things that worked and things that didn't work. I think that even if they make an active attempt to make sure the Essentials classes are on equal footing with the old classes, their experience with the system will simply make the new classes more interesting to play(if not just slightly more powerful).

Once again, I'm not saying that Essentials is going to make the new classes mandatory. However, I do think that after they come out, there might be a couple "Why would you take the Great Weapon Fighter? The Scourge gets the same bonus at first level and gets another bonus to hit at 11 and 21. And it still gets all the same power choices as the Great Weapon Fighter." conversations.

 

[Jack99]

Once again, I'm not saying that Essentials is going to make the new classes mandatory. However, I do think that after they come out, there might be a couple "Why would you take the Great Weapon Fighter? The Scourge gets the same bonus at first level and gets another bonus to hit at 11 and 21. And it still gets all the same power choices as the Great Weapon Fighter." conversations.

I agree, there very well might be quite a few of those conversations. Which is not much different from now. Want a defender, make a fighter, the others just dont "tank" as well. Want a healer? Get a cleric, he others just don't heal as well. Want a striker, get a sorceror or a ranger, the other strikers just don't do enough damage. Want a controllet, grab a wizard, the rest are next to useless... Or at least this is what some claim. Personally, I have found that most classes work fairly well

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Personally, I have found that most classes work fairly well

They do. I don't think there are any "clearly" better choices so far. I anticipate a couple in Essentials. I'm still withholding judgment, but so far the mage appears to get everything the Wizard does and more. If that's the case, the Wizard will be reserved purely for those people who don't own the Essentials books.

 

[Jack99]

They do. I don't think there are any "clearly" better choices so far. I anticipate a couple in Essentials. I'm still withholding judgment, but so far the mage appears to get everything the Wizard does and more. If that's the case, the Wizard will be reserved purely for those people who don't own the Essentials books.

Thanks. That was precisely my point. While you might not feel there are any clear choices atm, there are a lot of people, by my experience anyway, that feel that the classes I mentioned above are clear choices in their respective roles..

Of course this doesn't mean that they wont be replaced as clear cut choices by the essentials.. We will have to wait and see.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I just had a quick look at the Essentials wizard prompted by this thread and Wow! I want one It looks so old school. That said, I do not think it would be more powerful in play than other classes. It may be more powerful than the current Wizard but I believe that a lot of people thought that the current wizard build was a little on the weak side.

I wonder will we see a feat that would allow an existing Wizard pick up magic missile and an extra at will or add enounter powers to their spell book.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I just had a quick look at the Essentials wizard prompted by this thread and Wow! I want one It looks so old school. That said, I do not think it would be more powerful in play than other classes. It may be more powerful than the current Wizard but I believe that a lot of people thought that the current wizard build was a little on the weak side.

I wonder will we see a feat that would allow an existing Wizard pick up magic missile and an extra at will or add enounter powers to their spell book.

that could be quite overpowered considering the masteries... especially tome of readiness... (although picking up MM as a feature doesn´t sound wrong)