Red Box Monsters: Hints of Changes to Come?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Applying these "philosophy changes" to pre-MM3 monsters can be a lot of work, or it might barely be necessary. Some niche monsters are OK and don't really deserve a full update treatment, but they're nice to have available in 4E even if they aren't perfect. So that is why they haven't been "deprecated" or removed from the DDI tools.

That's why I wish there was some option in the monster builder to allow a DM to go through and remove/flag/hide those he/she feels are "depreciated" or "obseleted" by newer versions.

And I think the reason this reaction is occuring now (as opposed to when MM3 came out), is that this is the first time that on a large scale, existing classes of builds are getting new monsters that reflect the new monster philosophy. As a result, there will be classes of monsters (like orcs) which some that match the current "guidelines" and some that don't. I for one would like more control over managing which monsters I have to scroll through to find the "modern" orcs.

 

[Festivus]

While I agree with most of this (all of it if the trigger is "takes damage that would drop it to 0 hp"), if the trigger is "drops to 0 hp" then it has already taken the damage and all that's left to resolve is the effect, specifically death. Therefore it would have 0 hp when the charge happens and any damage dealt would cause a reevaluation (and death).

Here is the exact verbage of the power:

Orc Reaver	Level 5 Skirmisher

Savage Demise • Encounter
Trigger: The orc drops to 0 hit points.
Effect (No Action): The orc takes a standard action.

So is it a free action or a standard action or a standard action that acts like a free action (or really, what is No Action)? To me that reads as "If the orc drops to 0 hit points, as a no-action use one of it's standard actions". To me it doesn't matter... because he's already at 0 hit points... so op attacks isn't going to drop him further in hit points, so the charge should go... and the only way to stop it is to use something that will stop him (e.g. a sticky fighter).

 

[Anathos]

For the orc, the trigger is the damage, not the death. The interrupt happens before the damage applies.

It's an interrupt, so the Orc isn't at 0 HP- it happens before the action that triggered it happens.

It depends on the wording of the power. If it's "takes damage that would drop to 0 hp" then yes, the orc would still have whatever hp it had before getting hit, but the damage would still happen after the action is resolved. If the wording is "dropped to 0 hp" then the orc is in the strange state of having taken the damage (this has already been resolved) but not yet having dropped to 0 hp. There are two ways of handling it: the most sensible is that resolving the effects of having 0 hp is handled separately from taking the damage (which leaves the orc acting with 0 hp or less), and the weirder Interrupting in the middle of resolving the damage (which leaves the orc with 1 hp during the charge, the remainder of the damage getting dealt after the action is resolved). In either case any damage dealt during the charge kills the orc, halting its charge, which makes it a moot point.

 

[avin]

They have admitted it. In MM3 (or maybe 2, I don't remember) they said that the old monsters are outdated and then give tables that contain new stats-by-level-and-role so you can convert them, and Monster Vault contains a bunch of the monsters from MM1 updated to use the new stats and layout.

I don't remember reading that on my MM2 or MM3. In fact, folks at Wotc boards say the exact opposite: MM1 monsters don't need to be updated and the rules are for creating new monsters, not updating them.

And Wizards give no sign of including a "update your monster" button on Monster Builder... which is a shame...

 

[Anathos]

Here is the exact verbage of the power:

Orc Reaver	Level 5 Skirmisher

Savage Demise • Encounter
Trigger: The orc drops to 0 hit points.
Effect (No Action): The orc takes a standard action.

So is it a free action or a standard action or a standard action that acts like a free action (or really, what is No Action)? To me that reads as "If the orc drops to 0 hit points, as a no-action use one of it's standard actions". To me it doesn't matter... because he's already at 0 hit points... so op attacks isn't going to drop him further in hit points, so the charge should go... and the only way to stop it is to use something that will stop him (e.g. a sticky fighter).

Like I said before, if he takes any more damage you resolve any effects of taking damage, which includes but is not limited to killing him for being at 0 hp or less. If Savage Demise wasn't an Encounter power he would get an additional action but die before getting to finish resolving the first one.

 

[Nikosandros]

Orc Reaver	Level 5 Skirmisher

Savage Demise • Encounter
Trigger: The orc drops to 0 hit points.
Effect (No Action): The orc takes a standard action.

Where is the Reaver from? The three orcs I can find in the Red Box (Battletested, Archer and Savage) list Savage Demise as an immediate interrupt.

 

[Festivus]

Orcs of Stonefang Pass... sorry guess I am not running on all cylinders because I somehow missed we were talking about red box.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Of course you can. Just disable the sourcebook the outdated monsters are in, e.g. MM1.

Actually, now that I've had a chace to open up monster builder, one CAN'T do this - one can restrict one's seach to a specific source (say, MM2, or a particular issue of Dungeon), but one can't exclude a specific source.

So, either I search all of the recent sources individually (and they are organised alphabetically, not by date), or I do a "search all" and have to manually weed out the crap.

Now, I love monster builder, but with the change in monster philosophy I really wish it had more functionality.

 

[Jhaelen]

Actually, now that I've had a chace to open up monster builder, one CAN'T do this - one can restrict one's seach to a specific source (say, MM2, or a particular issue of Dungeon), but one can't exclude a specific source.

So, either I search all of the recent sources individually (and they are organised alphabetically, not by date), or I do a "search all" and have to manually weed out the crap.

Now, I love monster builder, but with the change in monster philosophy I really wish it had more functionality.

Ouch, you're right. I was thinking about the Character Builder - my bad!

Myself, I spent quite a bit of time analyzing the changes to monster design in MM3. I guess, I've internalized the changes since it doesn't take me long at all to notice any deviations from the standard and make the required changes.

For example, it took me about one hour to adjust all of the monsters in the 'Ashen Crown' adventure module. Considering that we've been playing the module for 12 sessions now and just reached part four of five, that's not a lot of time. It's absolutely nothing compared to the prep time 3e required.

I think it's also fascinating to notice where the designers chose to deviate from the standard numbers to achieve certain effects. E.g. dolgrims have a lower chance to hit to balance the fact that they get two initiative counts. Likewise hob-goblins have a lower chance to hit to compensate for their higher defenses. In 'Ashen Crown' there are ghost goblins that have a higher to-hit chance, but their damage is lower to compensate, etc.

If hadn't looked over the numbers I wouldn't have noticed any of these things, and wouldn't that have been a pity?

But I'm probably somewhat weird, I sometimes get these irresistible compulsions to analyze stuff...

 

[FireLance]

It depends on the wording of the power. If it's "takes damage that would drop to 0 hp" then yes, the orc would still have whatever hp it had before getting hit, but the damage would still happen after the action is resolved. If the wording is "dropped to 0 hp" then the orc is in the strange state of having taken the damage (this has already been resolved) but not yet having dropped to 0 hp. There are two ways of handling it: the most sensible is that resolving the effects of having 0 hp is handled separately from taking the damage (which leaves the orc acting with 0 hp or less), and the weirder Interrupting in the middle of resolving the damage (which leaves the orc with 1 hp during the charge, the remainder of the damage getting dealt after the action is resolved). In either case any damage dealt during the charge kills the orc, halting its charge, which makes it a moot point.

Not necessarily. An immediate interrupt takes place before the trigger occurs, and if it invalidates the triggering action, the triggering action is lost.

Hence, if an archer's attack would have reduced the orc's hit points to zero, but the orc manages to charge the archer and kill him with its savage demise, then the archer's attack is lost and the orc remains alive at the end of his charge (but with its savage demise expended for the encounter - it can't use it again).