Red Box Monsters: Hints of Changes to Come?

[Anathos]

Not necessarily. An immediate interrupt takes place before the trigger occurs, and if it invalidates the triggering action, the triggering action is lost.

Hence, if an archer's attack would have reduced the orc's hit points to zero, but the orc manages to charge the archer and kill him with its savage demise, then the archer's attack is lost and the orc remains alive at the end of his charge (but with its savage demise expended for the encounter - it can't use it again).

First of all, the power is "No action", not Immediate Interrupt. Second, Interrupts only come before their trigger, not the entire action. The trigger for Savage Demise is "is reduced to 0 hp or less", not "is hit by an attack that would..." or "takes damage that would..." (powers that have these triggers do exist, but Savage Demise isn't among them). Therefore the attack lands and the damage has been taken; at this point there's nothing that can save the orc other than healing, and any damage dealt during a charge(zones, OA, etc.) will kill the orc before it makes its attack.

 

[MightyZehir]

Not necessarily. An immediate interrupt takes place before the trigger occurs, and if it invalidates the triggering action, the triggering action is lost.

Hence, if an archer's attack would have reduced the orc's hit points to zero, but the orc manages to charge the archer and kill him with its savage demise, then the archer's attack is lost and the orc remains alive at the end of his charge (but with its savage demise expended for the encounter - it can't use it again).

But the attack had already hit, even if you killed the archer, the orc is still going to die because the attack is still going to resolve. I think of it as the orc uses its last breath to do something.

 

[FireLance]

First of all, the power is "No action", not Immediate Interrupt.

I think this is one source of the confusion. It's an immediate interrupt in the Red Box.

Second, Interrupts only come before their trigger, not the entire action. The trigger for Savage Demise is "is reduced to 0 hp or less", not "is hit by an attack that would..." or "takes damage that would..." (powers that have these triggers do exist, but Savage Demise isn't among them).

I can see where you're coming from, and I might rule that way if the power was indeed "no action". However, given that the power is an immediate interrupt, it seems kind of pointless to make it that way if it isn't actually able to interrupt anything. (At this point, I note that using a healing power or magic item would be one way in which the power would be effective as an interrupt, but I consider this a corner case since none of the orcs in the Red Box have access to healing powers or magic items. Hence, the power would not be useful as an interrupt "out of the box", so to speak.)

Therefore the attack lands and the damage has been taken; at this point there's nothing that can save the orc other than healing, and any damage dealt during a charge(zones, OA, etc.) will kill the orc before it makes its attack.

As for this part of the argument, in order for it to be valid, "taking damage" and "being reduced to 0 hit points" must be separate "steps" instead of parts of a single "step". While you are of course free to run it that way in your games if you wish, I personally would consider it an unnecessary complication. For completeness, I should add that I would consider being hit, taking damage and being reduced to 0 hit points to be all parts of the same "step", so any interrupt that triggers on either "taking damage" or "being reduced to 0 hit points" would activate before the user is hit in the first place.

 

[FireLance]

But the attack had already hit, even if you killed the archer, the orc is still going to die because the attack is still going to resolve. I think of it as the orc uses its last breath to do something.

Answered more completely above, but essentially, if the orc is going to die no matter what, why make it an interrupt in the first place?

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

The reason it is an interupt is that is the only way to actually give the orc an action - if it were a reaction, it would happen after the orc is already at zero hit points, in which case it can't take the reaction, as one can't take actions below zero hit points.

As for making it a free action, that has the same effect except that it allows the orc to use it even if:
1. it has already taken its immediate action; or
2. it is reduced to zero on its own turn.
The Rules Compendium makes clear that free actions can act as interupts when they need to in order to function (for example, the elves reroll racial power). This is one of those cases.

So, the power, whether worded as a free or an interupt, does allow the orc to do something - it gives it an attack when reduced to zero hit points. I don't see why the power NEEDS to give the orc a chance to avoid its death - its still a perfectly valid monster power in that it allows the orc one last chance to punish the players.

 

[eamon]

Assuming it's an immediate interrupt:

Immediate Interrupts explicitly can invalidate the triggering event. When does an II invalidate its trigger? Invalidation is notexplicit; rather, the trigger is invalidated when the effects of the interrupt make the trigger impossible to complete.

So, for instance, a wizard can cast shield at any time during the resolution of an attack, in particular, he can do so after the attack roll yet still invalidate it.

An immediate interrupt (or opportunity action) that trigger when the creature drops to 0 hit points can invalidate the triggering event - and it will invalidate the triggering event if the effects of the interrupt make the triggering event impossible.

So, a charge would indeed invalidate many attacks by virtue of range: if you can't hit the target, you... well... can't hit the target. If the power is an immediate interrupt, moving out of range of a damaging attack would clearly negate the damage.

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Assuming it's No Action:

Unfortunately, No Action resolution order is unspecified. On the matter of the Divine Challenge damage (which is damage similarly not an action) the FAQ for the Player's Handbook suggests:

The damage is in response to the marked creature's attack; the damage is not an interrupt. In general, effects are not interrupts unless they are designated as suchor unless they would be otherwise nonfunctional.
​

Emphasis mine.

That's not particularly precise - on the one hand, the Orc's action must occur before the trigger (after all, he can't take actions after dropping), and that suggests the No Action is an interrupt and as a consequence the interrupted event may be negated - but on the other hand, it's not explicit, and the power isn't nonfunctional under the alternative interpretation that the action occurs despite the damage rather than before the damage - after all, the standard action is taken as No Action and those aren't prevented by unconsciousness.

If this were a player power, I would presume that the rules should be watertight and that preventing the killing blow would be an intentional ability. Monster powers are much more succinct by default, and I'm not so sure this isn't just an imprecision due to brevity. (Since RAW necessarily implies reading the context, this matters).

Since it's an encounter power, I don't think the interrupt reading is overpowered, and I might go with that - it sounds rather cool, actually. But I don't have the red box nor essentials yet and can't really judge the full picture of this Orc. If it's already rather nasty, a weaker interpretation should be fine too. Fluff wise, it could go either way, really.

Although it'd be nice to know the intent, clearly monsters frequently have exceptional abilities (and this is exceptional in either interpretation), so it's not really a rules consistency nor a fundamental balance issue: either interpretation could be perfectly reasonable, and you're not opening a can of worms of precedent (since it's a monster and a unique ability).

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Edit: Initially, I though the power was No Action, but rereading this thread, that's not entirely obviously. Personally, it being No Action makes very little absolute sense: that would mean it's an effect that can occur even if the creature is unconscious, say. However, if the intent is that it's not an interrupt (i.e., the orc dies regardless), then No Action makes perfect sense: the orc drops to 0 hitpoints, and dies, but may take a standard action as No Action nevertheless. The odd corner case that the Orc being unconscious or otherwise unable to take an action already is then a mere oversight the DM shouldn't abuse on the penalty of undermining his own game. So, RAW is a little saner when it's an interrupt, and it's not unbalancing, but No Action is a little closer to the fluff but has a few weird corner cases of it own - corner cases that are less likely to matter and easily ignorable, but which are more absurd than those of the interrupt interpretation.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I feel that some people are overthinking this! Isn't 4e touted as the edition where there is more freedom

The intent seems pretty obvious, and there has been one or two attempts by them to phrase it consistently apparently (if it started as an immediate action and then became a no action).

From both the point of view of a DM and a player, when one of these orcs is taken down it gets another action (which might be an attack, a charge, or something else). The immediate nature means that it happens just before the results of reaching 0hp are resolved, it doesn't mean that it interrupts the attack which caused the 0hp situation.

What's wrong with saying 'hey, cool iconic power' and just using it in a straightforward fashion?

 

[eamon]

What's wrong with saying 'hey, cool iconic power' and just using it in a straightforward fashion?

What's iconic? I mean, a power where just when you think you've got that damn Orc he roars and leaps and desperately leaps at your allies throat isn't any more or less iconic (to me) just because the Orc drops or not at the end...

And what's straighforward? I mean, I do think that the Orc was probably imagined to drop by the original writer - but if a DM happens to read it straightforwardly as an interrupt and thus - as usual for interrupts - as a potential means to invalidate the trigger, well, there's nothing wrong with that either. It's not going to break the game; the orcs just need one more hit to go down; and you can't always invalidate the trigger anyhow (e.g. for a ranged or area attack, ongoing damage, or if it's immobilized or otherwise boxed in).

So it's perfectly reasonable to interpret it as a means of invalidation. DMs should never resort to screwing their players by wonky interpretations (because a DM can always do that), but this isn't nearly that bad.

 

[Oldtimer]

An immediate interrupt (or opportunity action) that trigger when the creature drops to 0 hit points can invalidate the triggering event - and it will invalidate the triggering event if the effects of the interrupt make the triggering event impossible.

So, a charge would indeed invalidate many attacks by virtue of range: if you can't hit the target, you... well... can't hit the target. If the power is an immediate interrupt, moving out of range of a damaging attack would clearly negate the damage.

The trigger is not the whole action. The trigger is just the event of being reduced to 0 hit points. If the immediate interrupt is spent on healing, this might invalidate the trigger. Killing the attacker or moving out of range will not invalidate the trigger, though.

 

[Nikosandros]

The trigger is not the whole action. The trigger is just the event of being reduced to 0 hit points. If the immediate interrupt is spent on healing, this might invalidate the trigger. Killing the attacker or moving out of range will not invalidate the trigger, though.

I agree. I think that's the difference between interrupting a hit (like with shield or second chance) and interrupting damage.