Rule of Three and THEMES! FINALLY THEMES!!!!

[Peraion Graufalke]

Well, is it awesome?

Looks good at first glance, although the themes are not quite like the Dark Sun ones - they don't have attack powers that increase in level. That was unexpected for me.
I'm gonna read them tomorrow morning, it's past midnight here and I'm quite tired.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well, is it awesome?

I've got my $9.95 at the ready; never been a subscriber, but for awesome themes, I'm considering it.

Yes, alchemist feat can be gotten by chosing a theme!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Actually I think some of them are rather unexpectedly strong. Order Adept for instance. Not sure what Peraion meant by "attack powers that increase in level" but the Order Adept attack power is a darn good encounter power with level scaling damage. 1d10+highest mod damage AB1 within 10? Not going to change the world, but I'd guess it will be at least as good as any other encounter power you'll have at level 1. My understanding was that theme attack powers were weak, these aren't. They are definitely on a par with class encounter powers.

Some of the other benefits for Order Adept seem pretty darn good. Level 5 you can select a wizard utility power instead of a class utility power at any level, that's a pretty darn nice benefit for a non-caster. Order Adept's utility powers are fairly nice too.

I don't have DS, so I am a bit unsure of the comparison to the themes appearing there, but some of these seem a good bit more mechanically significant than I was expecting. The concept is nice, but I'm not really a fan of the extra burden of choices and power creep. There is no way a player is going to put off or forgo having a theme, which really should be a more realistic option.

OTOH they do look fun.

 

[Mentat55]

In the DSCS, all themes offer encounter (level 3 and 7) and daily (level 5 and 9) attack powers that can be selected in lieu of normal class powers, just like optional utility powers in this article.

What the DSCS did not have are the level 5 and 10 features of the theme. Clearly these themes were designed to play nice with classes that do not receive standard encounter or daily powers.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A theme that gives an extra cantrip would be nice.

But no matter what, themes could now easily be used for multiclassing:

Theme: Multiclass
Level 1 benefit: A class specific multiclass feat.
Level 4 benefit: 1st power swap feat
Level 8 benefit: 2nd power swap feat
Level 10 benefit: 3rd power swap feat

(note that the wording was: MOST themes offer an additional benefit at level 5 and 10!)

As alternative, you could require a class specific multiclass feat as prerequisite and make the first level bonus an at-will of a class as encounter power...

 

[Obryn]

Actually I think some of them are rather unexpectedly strong.

Yeah, these are actually stronger than Dark Sun themes, given that the features are free.

In particular, though, I think the Order Adept is the only really broken one. Animal Friend needs some bumps, and Order Adept needs some nerfing.

Much like backgrounds that did too much (Windrise Ports, Auspicious Birth), these are offering too much benefit for no cost, IMO.

-O

 

[GMforPowergamers]

A theme that gives an extra cantrip would be nice.

But no matter what, themes could now easily be used for multiclassing:

Theme: Multiclass
Level 1 benefit: A class specific multiclass feat.
Level 4 benefit: 1st power swap feat
Level 8 benefit: 2nd power swap feat
Level 10 benefit: 3rd power swap feat

(note that the wording was: MOST themes offer an additional benefit at level 5 and 10!)

As alternative, you could require a class specific multiclass feat as prerequisite and make the first level bonus an at-will of a class as encounter power...

I would do, at 1st level an at will of the class as an encounter power, and 1 imp or weap prof of the class

at 5th level 1 1st level class feature
at 10th level 1 1st level class fearure

and can take utlity powers from the class...

[sblock=examples]
Fighter: gain a weapon prof, and 1 fighter at will as an encounter power
at 5th level your opp attacks stop movement
at 10th level you mark anyone you attack

cool, but without the punishment for the mark, and the wis bonus to opp attacks, still less then a full fighter

Wizard: gain imp prof and 1 wiz at will as an enconter
at 5th level gain 2 cantrips
at 10th level gain implment mastery

cool but wizards spell book is still out of reatch, and you need a feat to be half the rituel caster

rouge: gain weapon prof and 1 rouge at will as an encounter
at 5th level gain 1d6 sneak attack (does not increase with teir)
at 10th level gain rouge weapon talent

cool but not over the top...well except maybe for a twin strikeing dagger master ranger

Cleric: gain holy symbol prof, and 1 cleric at will as an encounter
at 5th level gain 1 channel divinity
at 10th level gain a 1/encounter healing word as half level

[/sblock]

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

Not sure what Peraion meant by "attack powers that increase in level" but the Order Adept attack power is a darn good encounter power with level scaling damage.

I meant attack powers like the Athasian Minstrel's Fever Poison; it's level 3 and has "upgrades" at levels 13 and 23 that improve its damage. Sorry for my poor wording there.

Now that I look at the new themes again I do notice that there is scaling damage on some of the powers. The thing I'm really missing is the option to swap attack powers of higher levels with theme powers, AKA the Dark Sun style. So my complaint is basically that they're mechanically different to the original themes, with an additional dose of power creep and a decrease of options.

Order Adept really stands out as being too good compared to the other themes. I find this lack of balance disturbing. How could the editor(s) not catch that before publication? It's not as bad as the original battlerager, but still...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

They are of the "friendly" kind of power creep:

They don´t make anything obsoleteand are just a little thing to make combats shorter... so no harm done.
The most impact will be at level 1, but youcould argue, that level one is one of the hardest levels. The jump to level 2 is very very big. (+1 to all, a utility that could mean +2 defense, the possibility of monsters that are actually under your level, etc.)

 

[JustKim]

I like the idea of multiclass themes, but I think I would do it a certain way.

• Don't make multiclass themes a qualification for class feats or paragon paths. Allow characters who take multiclass themes to take multiclass feats and achieve those benefits normally.
• Have the multiclass themes offer different features than the multiclass feats do, so that if you take both a multiclass theme and multiclass feats, you end up with a fuller multiclass experience, instead of some wasted abilities.
• Don't give multiclass themes ability score requirements, so you don't have the problem of people waiting 4 levels to pick up a theme.