Rule of Three and THEMES! FINALLY THEMES!!!!

[GMforPowergamers]

Alternately, if the Defender is doing his job, the enemies are taking damage due to ignoring a mark (or being generally less effective) and dealing less damage in the long run due to a case of the deads. There are at least two schools of defending out there, usually mandated by the DM, not the player.

in general I have marked targets attack the marking player most of the time... sometimes theere are reasons not to...but for the most part I assume that is the point of the mark.

I have recently had a paliden and battle mind in my game and both get mad that there punishment is 'uselss' becuse I never invoke it...

 

[renau1g]

I usually try to have the defender get their mark punishment on once a fight, well the fighter's a hard one because you can't shift away from them and their OA's hurt. I find Paladin's the easiest to ignore (because they typically have sky-high AC so it's super hard to hit them anyway and their damage is not too bad usually)

 

[DNH]

Maybe I shouldn't have used a verbose example and tried to generalize more:

At the start of combat, when no one is injured, and not all enemies are in place - who do you think will need saving most?

It's simple - you don't know it.

You do not know who will take the most hits. You might negate damage dealt to the Rogue, but it turns out the enemy will be attacking the wizard most of the time, and so that 10 damage the Rogue has will be all damage he ever takes that combat. While the Wizard could have used another 10 hit points to spend his second wind on the next turn.

I play a wizard in our Pathfinder game and while I don't want to get complacent about it, he NEVER gets hit. He is Level 14 now and I don't think he has been wounded in combat since about Level 6! With one exception: a blue dragon breath weapon attack that completely took him out - from unwounded to -3!

 

[Aegeri]

@Mustrum_Ridcully and @WalterKovacs have got the argument exactly right. Saving 10 damage at the beginning of the fight is irrelevant, unless you are distinctly psychic or nobody in the party ever gets attacked save for 1-2 characters. The best uses of disruptive strike are to prevent really annoying effects (Jackalweres knocking you unconscious would be right up there) and to prevent an ally from going down (and therefore losing their entire next turn). I never see it used like that though, which has got to the point that I know I can "bait" the power out just by attacking a PC with a creature. So if the creature has a really strong single target attack, I can get the PC to reliably waste disruptive strike on a crappy mook attack before I use something important.

It's not like it matters to the PC much. The tactical use is irrelevant: The point is that it's his extra attack each round to do higher damage. He wants to use it immediately and when he can. Pulling the triggers back to rare events keeps these meaningful, but it reduces their sheer "Take this to increase DPR" factor. It has the lovely side effect of reducing their power considerably. Noting of course that the PC probably has multiple other II and IR powers as well. So using 1 per round is basically desirable, or you won't be able to use all of them in the first place.

I usually try to have the defender get their mark punishment on once a fight, well the fighter's a hard one because you can't shift away from them and their OA's hurt. I find Paladin's the easiest to ignore (because they typically have sky-high AC so it's super hard to hit them anyway and their damage is not too bad usually)

Paladin Marks get disgusting if they take vulnerability increasing channel divinities or a paragon path like Morninglord. It also damages on targeting and is supremely effective against undead. Paladin marks are saved a lot by having such a great energy type (radiant) attached to them.

 

[WalterKovacs]

It is really twin strike that is the biggest problem with the interupt powers, although it can be nasty with other classes.

Twin strike is basically, at minimum, 2[W]+mod damage effectively (since once you are a few levels in, the bonuses to each weapon hit is probably at least equal to your ability mod, so that getting it without mod twice is about equivalent to mod+other bonuses once ... So, when you can get 2[W]+mod for your at-will, your encounter needs to be better than 3[W]+double mod in order for it to be better than a 1[W]+mod minor/interupt ... so basically either 4[W]+mod (even that is probably weak) or 2[W]+mod with each attack, and giving 2 attacks, or 3 or for 1[W]+mod attacks, etc. [A possible change to twin strike, have it be 2 attack rolls vs. a single target, and does 1[w] or 2[w] depending on the number of hits, which at least prevents the doubling up on bonuses like weapon focus, magic enchantment, etc]

 

[Aenghus]

I like the idea of themes, I will be interested to see their expansion to generic rather than particular settings.

Interrupts and reaction powers that are very conditional are easy to forget and so often wasted even when the trigger condition turns up. This is one reason they uniformly get bad ratings in class handbooks.

The more general the condition to use a power the more likely it can be used every encounter, and used quickly

Nerfing a out-of-turn power by making its trigger more conditional risks making it subpar, depending on how rare the condition is.

When playing a ranger, I use Disruptive Strike as early as reasonable - early damage is good damage, and in most encounters a good target presents itself.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It is really twin strike that is the biggest problem with the interupt powers, although it can be nasty with other classes.

Twin strike is basically, at minimum, 2[W]+mod damage effectively (since once you are a few levels in, the bonuses to each weapon hit is probably at least equal to your ability mod, so that getting it without mod twice is about equivalent to mod+other bonuses once ... So, when you can get 2[W]+mod for your at-will, your encounter needs to be better than 3[W]+double mod in order for it to be better than a 1[W]+mod minor/interupt ... so basically either 4[W]+mod (even that is probably weak) or 2[W]+mod with each attack, and giving 2 attacks, or 3 or for 1[W]+mod attacks, etc. [A possible change to twin strike, have it be 2 attack rolls vs. a single target, and does 1[w] or 2[w] depending on the number of hits, which at least prevents the doubling up on bonuses like weapon focus, magic enchantment, etc]

Yeah, making TS a single attack for damage purposes would be a good first step. That would fix a lot of design problems besides just triggered attacks. At least you'd have the design space to do something about them.

 

[Kinneus]

Nerfing a out-of-turn power by making its trigger more conditional risks making it subpar, depending on how rare the condition is.

I agree with this, and it's why the suggestion for 'fixing' immediate reactions and interrupts offered in this article is such a terrible one. "Immediate interrupts and reactions are fiddly and slow the game down, so clearly the answer is to make them even more fiddly by giving them super-specific triggers!" Ugh. Terrible. Thank goodness he was just talking hypothetically.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with this, and it's why the suggestion for 'fixing' immediate reactions and interrupts offered in this article is such a terrible one. "Immediate interrupts and reactions are fiddly and slow the game down, so clearly the answer is to make them even more fiddly by giving them super-specific triggers!" Ugh. Terrible. Thank goodness he was just talking hypothetically.

Yeah. There could also be less of these powers though. Again hypothetically. Make those types of powers Daily and let them be nasty, but you just aren't going to be able to get large numbers of them. When they happen they are high impact, but they are not used a lot, so it is a nice way to whack some solo hard or kill off some annoying opponent quick. Still a good ranger shtick but not ridiculous.

Eh, some day someone will roll over and make 5th Edition and every one of these little annoying things can be tweaked. It could be a very nice game, lol.

 

[Xris Robin]

the ranger uses dirupting to increase his DPR... and is 1 pt from turning it into a noncrit

Hold on, I want to go back to this. Turning it into a non-crit? I don't remember that being part of Disruptive Strike.