Firearms Preview

[Morrus]

This preview contains an extract from the ZEITGEIST Player's Guide, introducing firearms to the game. We hope you enjoy it!

ZEITGEIST will be here very soon, I promise! Hopefully these previews (and the nine character themes in another thread) will help satiate your appetite a little in the meantime.

As with the theme previews, I put these together myself, so they're not as pretty as the stuff done by our layout artist. And, as with the themes, these are previews based on the near-final manuscript, so there may be some minor differences in the final Player's Guide.

This is the D&D 4E version. There is, of course, a Pathfinder RPG equivalent.

 

[john112364]

I like the preview. There are some definite plusses to having a gun, without overshadowing other weapons. Basically shoot 'em then draw your real weapon. Good job of balancing.

 

[Colmarr]

I still think these are probably the best firearms rules for D&D (of any edition) that I've seen. They make them worthwhile but not overpowered.

But load standard wasn't enough. Now they're load 2?

Mock outrage aside, I don't think there's much of a practical difference between the two. Whether it's load standard or load 2, it still equates to one shot per encounter unless you're carrying more than one weapon.

It has more relevance to NPCs (wink wink) than PCs, unless you don't apply the same reload rules to them.

 

[Morrus]

I still think these are probably the best firearms rules for D&D (of any edition) that I've seen. They make them worthwhile but not overpowered.

But load standard wasn't enough. Now they're load 2?

Mock outrage aside, I don't think there's much of a practical difference between the two. Whether it's load standard or load 2, it still equates to one shot per encounter unless you're carrying more than one weapon.

It has more relevance to NPCs (wink wink) than PCs, unless you don't apply the same reload rules to them.

Bear in mind the preview doesn't include feats.

 

[Colmarr]

Bear in mind the preview doesn't include feats.

Assuming they're the same as the feats RangerWickett posted about as part of his firearms teaser a few weeks ago, I'm aware of them. And they form part of why I consider this "probably the best firearms rules for D&D (of any edition) that I've seen".

I wasn't objecting to load 2. It fits well with what is actually involved in loading a firearm of that type. I was getting in first to point out that there is little practical difference between load standard and load 2. Attempting either is a poor use of standard actions, and is unlikely to come up that often for PCs.

It's more of an issue for NPCs, particularly if a firearm is their primary weapon (and I can think of one in particular in the first adventure).

Unless, of course, they get either a special dispensation from the reloading rules, or a bandolier filled with loaded firearms.

 

[RangerWickett]

actually, I think Russ is using an older file for these previews. I changed it to load standard for Colmarrs reason.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Unless, of course, they get either a special dispensation from the reloading rules, or a bandolier filled with loaded firearms.

Fire until it's empty, drop it, draw a new one.

 

[Riastlin]

Thanks for the preview! As I've mentioned earlier, I've been toying with the idea of bringing firearms into my next D&D campaign, but have been wrestling with the balance issues. These are certainly a very good start and I will be looking forward to seeing the full set. Though I seem to have missed the other firearms preview.

Edit: Okay some more thoughts after having had a chance to ruminate on these a little more. Brutal 2 + High crit does a nice job of making firearms feel powerful (they should, to an extent, be scarier than just a bow and arrow for instance). The problem I have though is I am not sure that with a reload time of standard that they are powerful enough to justify regular use. Heck, even reload as a move action seems a bit weak with these numbers.

The trouble of course is making sure they are balanced though. More damage is good, but there still needs to be some sort of drawback. I'm wondering if maybe adding 1 die of damage while keeping the reload as a move and/or standard action would do a good job. I guess the issue is that ideally, I'd like to see an even distribution between players using bows and firearms, otherwise, why have bows? So other possibilities for balancing include upping the cost for firearms significantly -- particularly might work given the possibility for "breakage". Alternatively, proficiency bonus could be dropped to one (deal more damage but hit less often), or maybe even increase the potential for misfires/problems resulting from misfires. Hmmm, lots to think about . . .

Of course, none of this takes into account feats (which I have not seen) nor general flavor of the world, etc. I'm not judging the proposed system yet either since I have not seen it in its entirety (thus it would be premature to do so). All that being said though, I definitely think its very close to what I would want to do anyway. When you are able to do so, I would be very interested in reading about how the system was designed (i.e. what discussions did you have, playtest reports, etc.) Ultimately, I guess what I'm looking for with firearms is making it so that they definitely hurt a bit more, but also giving them some sort of opportunity cost so as not to make them an obvious choice.

 

[RangerWickett]

The conceit of firearms in the setting is that they are not primary weapons. They're like Civil War-era guns, and if you're alone (as opposed to being in a phalanx of guys with tons of other guns) you normally can't rely on a gun. You might fire it off, but before you can reload, your enemy will be on you.

I'm fine with it adding a tiny smidge of spike damage to the game, because combat in 4e can take a bit longer than I'd like. And if you want to specialize in guns, you can, but it's not something you can do at the drop of a hat.

 

[Riastlin]

The conceit of firearms in the setting is that they are not primary weapons. They're like Civil War-era guns, and if you're alone (as opposed to being in a phalanx of guys with tons of other guns) you normally can't rely on a gun. You might fire it off, but before you can reload, your enemy will be on you.

I'm fine with it adding a tiny smidge of spike damage to the game, because combat in 4e can take a bit longer than I'd like. And if you want to specialize in guns, you can, but it's not something you can do at the drop of a hat.

Cool, with that in mind, I think it works well. Wasn't sure how common you were looking to make firearms in combat.