Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[Dark Mistress]

Keeping with the oWoD/nWoD theme, what other games went through a big fall off after changes?

I am not sure if Shadowrun qualifies as I have not played in the recent era.

There seems to be some discontent with the new WHFRP but I have no experience with the system or the player base numbers.

What else?

I would say to a point it is true of Rolemaster, after it changed to the new version and off the top of my head I can't remember what each one was called now. The first one is now called classic Rolemaster. But I know when they made some changes with the new edition a large number of people didn't move forward and stuck with the old version.

I am not sure how much of a drop off it was, but it was noticable.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

And how many gamers have been killed by an RPG flipping over?

I dunno... those books are pretty big, and some gamers are pretty scrawny.

 

[prosfilaes]

the title of this thread: Pathfinder outselling d&D leads to two big questions for me.

1 - how would one go about finding reliable sales figures for "d&d"

As pointed out at the start of the thread, these numbers come from studies of sales of books in the hobby market. They're also backed up by Amazon's lists of best sellers in the gaming section. Normally, one should at least read the first couple posts.

2 - and this is my real question: SO?

If you don't care, then don't care. But it's information into the future; it helps us guess if and when D&D 5 and Pathfinder 2 will come out, and what they're look like, how long and how well the current games will be supported. I see no reason to cast aspersion on those who are interested.

 

[Dannager]

Keeping in mind, of course, that a SUV flipping over is mutually agreed by all sane people to be an actual problem.

Yes. We can argue over why you don't think it's a problem later. For right now, I'm trying to get one or two people to understand that there's a difference between not seeing a problem, and a problem not existing.

 

[Dannager]

I really don't think its an apt comparison. This is an issue that clearly boils down to preference and play style. Nobody wants their suv to flip, but lots of people want optimized builds or wizards that get pretty uber over the course of a campaign.

Yes. Typically the Wizards.

 

[Dannager]

Of course there's a chance of flipping over when driven off-road; any vehicle without gravitonic stabilizers will do that on a sufficiently high grade.

Let's take another problem of that SUV; it doesn't stand up to small arms fire. That's a real problem, and for many people in the world, that's a deal-stopper. But most people don't care; they continue to buy cars that can't stand up to small arms fire. Just because a problem exists, doesn't mean that every consumer is willing to accept the cost of fixing it.

If you think that needing a game to be balanced is analogous to an SUV needing to withstand small arms fire, I'm afraid that there probably isn't a lot of common ground for us to communicate on.

 

[IronWolf]

If you think that needing a game to be balanced is analogous to an SUV needing to withstand small arms fire, I'm afraid that there probably isn't a lot of common ground for us to communicate on.

So needing a game to be balanced is analogous to an SUV that might tip when used off-road? Your analogies do more harm than good for this discussion.

 

[TheUltramark]

As pointed out at the start of the thread, these numbers come from studies of sales of books in the hobby market. They're also backed up by Amazon's lists of best sellers in the gaming section. Normally, one should at least read the first couple posts.

ah, but my point was simply to question the validity of unaccredited studies and raise the point that perhaps not everyone shops at amazon.com

If you don't care, then don't care. But it's information into the future; it helps us guess if and when D&D 5 and Pathfinder 2 will come out, and what they're look like, how long and how well the current games will be supported. I see no reason to cast aspersion on those who are interested.

I am sorry you feel I am casting aspersions on anyone, my curiosity lies in those involved with the ...i believe they are called edition wars in several of the threads here. There is no doubt there have been posts which really cast aspersions on someone based on what game they enjoy playing with their friends in their free time.
As far as guessing when d&D 5 will come out, well, I like guessing games, I will say Christmas 2012 (let me know if we are playing with more specific guesses)

 

[Dannager]

So needing a game to be balanced is analogous to an SUV that might tip when used off-road? Your analogies do more harm than good for this discussion.

No.

The SUV analogy was for one purpose: to demonstrate the very basic principle that one individual being unaware of a problem does not demonstrate the absence of the problem. It merely demonstrates the individual's ignorance of it.

Please don't try to extend the analogy any further than its intent. It bothers me that I'm forced to resort to them in the first place. These are the sort of points that should not have to be established mid-discussion. Furthermore, I'm not going to entertain the notion that you're so unable to parse the purpose of the analogy that it actually harms your ability to follow the topic. I do not believe for a second that anyone participating in this discussion is that dense.

 

[BryonD]

Yes. We can argue over why you don't think it's a problem later. For right now, I'm trying to get one or two people to understand that there's a difference between not seeing a problem, and a problem not existing.

But your examples are demonstrating the problem of blaming user error on a device that functions perfectly well when used correctly.