Wiseblood
Adventurer
I forgot about the # app. the average ogre encounter in AD&D exceeds the max number recommended in 3e.
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I don't get the dislike of healing surges
- Thread starter Mercurius
- Start date
I forgot about the # app. the average ogre encounter in AD&D exceeds the max number recommended in 3e.
Wiseblood
Adventurer
You should change that to Very High Stats. Most ability scores below 15 did not net a bonus. What exactly happens?
Hussar
Legend
Thing to remember though is, those ogres in Basic D&D? They're carrying 100-600 gp EACH. More if they're in their lair. On average, an ogre in Basic is worth about 400 xp. Not a bad net.
And, let's not forget that there's a reason you meet 2-20 ogres. One ogre shouldn't be able to seriously challenge a lone 4th level fighter, let alone an entire group. Remember? 12 rounds to drop the below average fighter? That B/E group should have anywhere from 6-12 characters (between PC's, Henchmen and hirelings) in the group. Mr. Ogre only has 16 hp and an AC of 5. Our 4th level fighter is hitting him a tad less than 50% of the time and is doing d12 points of damage (presuming a longsword and no strength bonus) IOW, the ogre dies in about 5 or 6 rounds on average, while the fighter is still sitting at 1/2 HP.
It would take 2 ogres just to seriously challenge that ONE fighter. Never mind his two buddies and their half dozen peons armed with bows getting two attacks per round. Or, even just give them longswords and the ogres are still dying like flies.
JRRNeiklot, 12 deaths. OK. How many sessions are we talking about here? And are all of these PC deaths or are you counting flunkies in here too?
And, let's not forget that there's a reason you meet 2-20 ogres. One ogre shouldn't be able to seriously challenge a lone 4th level fighter, let alone an entire group. Remember? 12 rounds to drop the below average fighter? That B/E group should have anywhere from 6-12 characters (between PC's, Henchmen and hirelings) in the group. Mr. Ogre only has 16 hp and an AC of 5. Our 4th level fighter is hitting him a tad less than 50% of the time and is doing d12 points of damage (presuming a longsword and no strength bonus) IOW, the ogre dies in about 5 or 6 rounds on average, while the fighter is still sitting at 1/2 HP.
It would take 2 ogres just to seriously challenge that ONE fighter. Never mind his two buddies and their half dozen peons armed with bows getting two attacks per round. Or, even just give them longswords and the ogres are still dying like flies.
JRRNeiklot, 12 deaths. OK. How many sessions are we talking about here? And are all of these PC deaths or are you counting flunkies in here too?
JRRNeiklot
First Post
Let's see, the campaign started sometime in late September, playing weekly, so 6-7 weeks. There are 7 pcs. Early on they were dropping like flies. One pc was directly responsible for 2 deaths, as he didn't think before firing into melee - in basic, you just can't fire into melee, but they wanted to be able to in a pinch, so we adopted the 1e 50% chance to hit either combatant rule. Since they hit 4th level (except the elf), there's only been one death, although there's been a couple of close calls. Green slime almost did the halfling in. Or rather, the party setting him on fire to kill the slime, heh. As far as henchmen, they had 2 early on, now they have none. Keep in mind, unless you specifically hire mercenaries or soldiers, you can't order hirelings into battle, as a general rule. They are going to revolt. There's a nice table for that.
If you take one static encounter, 3e may well be as deadly as 1e or Basic, but our group has one cleric. He can possibly cast TWO cure light wound spells, if he doesn't memorize something else instead. He also has a staff of healing, so he can heal each party member once a day for 1-6+1. That's it. After that, they're not gonna recover hit points until they rest. And we've never experienced the 15 minute work day. It makes no sense to us to stop adventuring just because we're down a few spells and hit points. If one party member is hurt seriously, they just change the marching order, slap a range weapon in his hands and move on.
If you take one static encounter, 3e may well be as deadly as 1e or Basic, but our group has one cleric. He can possibly cast TWO cure light wound spells, if he doesn't memorize something else instead. He also has a staff of healing, so he can heal each party member once a day for 1-6+1. That's it. After that, they're not gonna recover hit points until they rest. And we've never experienced the 15 minute work day. It makes no sense to us to stop adventuring just because we're down a few spells and hit points. If one party member is hurt seriously, they just change the marching order, slap a range weapon in his hands and move on.
Sounds like us.
Same here. Sounds like every group that I have played in or DM'd as well.
Hussar
Legend
JRRNeiklot - look at what you're saying though. If someone is down HP, you simply swap out another PC and move around the order a bit and soldier on.
That means that that is a viable tactic. Or, to put it another way, you can afford to have PC's stand in front and take the beating. When you have 7 PC's, that does help considerably as well.
Now, try that with only 4 PC's and up the monster damage three to four times. By the math, that's what 3e should play like. Yes, your 3e PC will have more HP, I won't deny that. But 3 times more HP? I don't think so.
Note, again, what you said about character deaths - "Green slime" almost did them in. Sure. I already said that the save or die stuff is bloody lethal in earlier D&D. IIRC, my exact words were something to the effect that it was almost entirely the SoD stuff that makes earlier D&D so deadly.
I don't need 8 ogres to challenge the party because 8 ogres will obliterate a 3e 4th level party. OTOH, 8 ogres vs an AD&D party is a pretty standard encounter which I would expect a 4th level party of 7 PC's to be able to handle with some difficulty.
That means that that is a viable tactic. Or, to put it another way, you can afford to have PC's stand in front and take the beating. When you have 7 PC's, that does help considerably as well.
Now, try that with only 4 PC's and up the monster damage three to four times. By the math, that's what 3e should play like. Yes, your 3e PC will have more HP, I won't deny that. But 3 times more HP? I don't think so.
Note, again, what you said about character deaths - "Green slime" almost did them in. Sure. I already said that the save or die stuff is bloody lethal in earlier D&D. IIRC, my exact words were something to the effect that it was almost entirely the SoD stuff that makes earlier D&D so deadly.
I don't need 8 ogres to challenge the party because 8 ogres will obliterate a 3e 4th level party. OTOH, 8 ogres vs an AD&D party is a pretty standard encounter which I would expect a 4th level party of 7 PC's to be able to handle with some difficulty.
Fox Lee
Explorer
Personally I dig surges, for several main reasons, starting with my feeling that they've really opened up the possibility for a variety of healing powers (as opposed to the traditional "dx hp" sets). Healing is a more abstract, and much less owned by divine classes.
I value tremendously the fact that they get better for characters with bigger hp pools. It's awful to feel that you have made a healer's job harder by having a bigger hit point pool, and I have always found that the best way to address that is to express healing as a percentage of the recipient's total. Healing surges are the solution to making that work in a system where you don't want to waste time calculating those percentages in play.
They are an excellent resource. As soon as you give the characters a new resource pool, you can use it to fuel other things - for example, penalising a failed skill check/challenge with surge loss, using them to activate items, and so forth.
Since there aren't many "per day" resources in 4e (as opposed to per-encounter), They are important for maintaining a good move/rest pattern for adventuring.
My only gripe is that I rather wish they had left off "healing" from the name. A more generically-named "surge" could have had even more interesting applications as a resource, especially for cinematic plot devices and other things that aren't strictly rules-appropriate. Want to throw yourself in front of the sword to save that civilian? Sure, you sacrifice a surge and get a dramatic shoulder injury. Your heroic act inspires the crowd to turn on the aggressor! Villain uses deus ex machina to escape, so as not to ruin the major plot? Your pride wells up as you swear you'll track him down, granting you an extra surge!
I dunno, it sounds pretty compelling to me. Your Game May Vary.
I value tremendously the fact that they get better for characters with bigger hp pools. It's awful to feel that you have made a healer's job harder by having a bigger hit point pool, and I have always found that the best way to address that is to express healing as a percentage of the recipient's total. Healing surges are the solution to making that work in a system where you don't want to waste time calculating those percentages in play.
They are an excellent resource. As soon as you give the characters a new resource pool, you can use it to fuel other things - for example, penalising a failed skill check/challenge with surge loss, using them to activate items, and so forth.
Since there aren't many "per day" resources in 4e (as opposed to per-encounter), They are important for maintaining a good move/rest pattern for adventuring.
My only gripe is that I rather wish they had left off "healing" from the name. A more generically-named "surge" could have had even more interesting applications as a resource, especially for cinematic plot devices and other things that aren't strictly rules-appropriate. Want to throw yourself in front of the sword to save that civilian? Sure, you sacrifice a surge and get a dramatic shoulder injury. Your heroic act inspires the crowd to turn on the aggressor! Villain uses deus ex machina to escape, so as not to ruin the major plot? Your pride wells up as you swear you'll track him down, granting you an extra surge!
I dunno, it sounds pretty compelling to me. Your Game May Vary.
JamesonCourage
Adventurer
A well designed and synergistic selection of characters in 3.X just using the core PHB would probably win against those 8 ogres. It depends on some factors, but if things are going the PCs way based on some controllable factors (stealth, fighting outside, etc.), then I can see winning that fight without too much hurt on the party. I'd feel pretty good about fighting those 8 ogres with a level 4 human fighter or barbarian, human wizard or sorcerer, halfling rogue, and human druid.
Opening a room and finding 8 ogres? Well, you can keep them stuck fighting in the doorway. It's going to be a little tougher, but bottlenecking them will help a lot. If the Wizard uses a Glitterdust spell, half the group might well be blind (DC 17 ish vs. their +1 to Will). A well aimed Grease spell will incapacitate most of them (they get +0 Reflex, and it makes them able to be Sneak Attacked if they fail a DC 10 Balance check [they get -4]), and that means that the halfling rogue is going to be getting +2d6 Sneak Attack damage (hits on an 5+, which isn't too bad). Being blinded and flat-footed really hurts. The wizard can probably follow thing up with a well-placed Ghost Sound to mimic the party, perhaps getting blind ogres to attack one another. The druid can use a Spider Swarm to attack up to four ogres at once (if they're crowded together), each round dealing 1d6 plus poison (ogres only have about a 20% chance of failing a save, but it makes them make two saves, one of which nauseates them [means they can't attack]). With 8 saves at 20% being made per round, odds are alright that 1-2 saves will fail. Additionally, the druid can clog up the doorway with a Summon Nature's Ally I (which he can spontaneously convert to), tanking for the party by blocking the door (sure, it only lasts three rounds, but the blinded ogres miss 50% of the time, and have a 20% chance to be nauseated). The fighter can attack using his ranged weapon, and use his tower shield for full cover when the ogres finally get through (readying to 5-ft. step back and let another Summon Nature's Ally I take his place). The brunt of the assault will be within three rounds, but it's definitely doable. The party has used up substantial resources (probably half), but they're taking on a very tough challenge.
If the party is in the wilderness, casting the Entangle spell (80 feet wide) will catch most of them (DC 15 ish vs +0 Reflex), keeping them rooted in place. The others will be lowered to half their normal speed, and the area will keep trying to entangle them each turn. Circling around the area to avoid escaping ogres or picking them off is possible. Hit and run tactics with spells and bows on horseback is also an option (trap them, pepper them, run around or away).
In either situation, with a well organized party, I think it's very doable. And this is just the core PHB. Throw in some more options, and the party can improve (I haven't factored for magic items, only masterwork weapons, as that's core PHB). Yes, it'd be tough to keep the pace up (well, for the room, at least... you could perform quite a few hit and run tactics against ogres for relatively minor resources), but a well oiled 3.X party will not be "obliterated" by 8 ogres. If ambushed, then yes, they're probably screwed. If it's an even fight, I give the adventurers a fair shot (ogre's get -1 initiative). If the adventurers are very careful and are picking and choosing their battles, then I give it to the adventurers.
Anyways, just thought I'd throw that out there. If you increased the party size of the 3e party to 7, I'd say it swings considerably in favor of the PCs. It just depends on party tactics (which, I think, was the point of some people this entire time). As always, play what you like
Opening a room and finding 8 ogres? Well, you can keep them stuck fighting in the doorway. It's going to be a little tougher, but bottlenecking them will help a lot. If the Wizard uses a Glitterdust spell, half the group might well be blind (DC 17 ish vs. their +1 to Will). A well aimed Grease spell will incapacitate most of them (they get +0 Reflex, and it makes them able to be Sneak Attacked if they fail a DC 10 Balance check [they get -4]), and that means that the halfling rogue is going to be getting +2d6 Sneak Attack damage (hits on an 5+, which isn't too bad). Being blinded and flat-footed really hurts. The wizard can probably follow thing up with a well-placed Ghost Sound to mimic the party, perhaps getting blind ogres to attack one another. The druid can use a Spider Swarm to attack up to four ogres at once (if they're crowded together), each round dealing 1d6 plus poison (ogres only have about a 20% chance of failing a save, but it makes them make two saves, one of which nauseates them [means they can't attack]). With 8 saves at 20% being made per round, odds are alright that 1-2 saves will fail. Additionally, the druid can clog up the doorway with a Summon Nature's Ally I (which he can spontaneously convert to), tanking for the party by blocking the door (sure, it only lasts three rounds, but the blinded ogres miss 50% of the time, and have a 20% chance to be nauseated). The fighter can attack using his ranged weapon, and use his tower shield for full cover when the ogres finally get through (readying to 5-ft. step back and let another Summon Nature's Ally I take his place). The brunt of the assault will be within three rounds, but it's definitely doable. The party has used up substantial resources (probably half), but they're taking on a very tough challenge.
If the party is in the wilderness, casting the Entangle spell (80 feet wide) will catch most of them (DC 15 ish vs +0 Reflex), keeping them rooted in place. The others will be lowered to half their normal speed, and the area will keep trying to entangle them each turn. Circling around the area to avoid escaping ogres or picking them off is possible. Hit and run tactics with spells and bows on horseback is also an option (trap them, pepper them, run around or away).
In either situation, with a well organized party, I think it's very doable. And this is just the core PHB. Throw in some more options, and the party can improve (I haven't factored for magic items, only masterwork weapons, as that's core PHB). Yes, it'd be tough to keep the pace up (well, for the room, at least... you could perform quite a few hit and run tactics against ogres for relatively minor resources), but a well oiled 3.X party will not be "obliterated" by 8 ogres. If ambushed, then yes, they're probably screwed. If it's an even fight, I give the adventurers a fair shot (ogre's get -1 initiative). If the adventurers are very careful and are picking and choosing their battles, then I give it to the adventurers.
Anyways, just thought I'd throw that out there. If you increased the party size of the 3e party to 7, I'd say it swings considerably in favor of the PCs. It just depends on party tactics (which, I think, was the point of some people this entire time). As always, play what you like
I love the idea, although what is the mechanical consequences that models the shoulder injury (to add weight to the role-playing with roll-playing).
Hit points/healing surges is conflating 2 different narrative and/or simultationist goals:
1) the dramatic ebb and flow of heroic potential (alas I am too tired, I shall die now, NO!!! not my them too! I. WILL. KILL. YOU!)
2) the gritty dramatic ebb and flow of a hero in real danger (thrills and tension when a hero puts him/herself at risk of mortal danger from which they may or may not recover)
It seems to me that expecting D&D to satisfy both narrative expectations with the same hit point mechanic seems doomed to failure.
In a modular 5E, I think it's possible to have both. In the base/core ruleset, you default to #1 and players can worry less about clerics and healing wands. In the advanced ruleset, you have a Vitality/Wounds track, and a healer is strongly encouraged. So everyone's happy, right?
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