I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[Fox Lee]

I love the idea, although what is the mechanical consequences that models the shoulder injury (to add weight to the role-playing with roll-playing).

That would be the loss of the surge ^_^; Otherwise the whole thing is just roleplay.

 

[Hussar]

Jameson Courage - in other words, it's doable by abusing some of the most broken spells in the game - Glitterdust and Grease and Entangle. Note, we're not supposed to be using spells here since we have to save our highest level spells for later. 4th level wizard isn't supposed to need to cast his Glitterdust spell according to some.

Or, to put it another way, get a caster or go home.

Note, the AD&D party is doing this without a caster. They can take on 8 ogres at any time and can probably do it multiple times per day, so long as their HP hold out.

Oh, and btw, Glitterdust is a 10 foot radius spread. Sure, if 4 of the ogres are standing shoulder to shoulder, then you could get half of them. Never mind that the other 4 are STILL going to obliterate your party. Bottlenecking? Good grief, you just want your fighter to die don't you? I've got reach and you don't. I don't need to get into the doorway to hit the fighter. 2 ogres can attack from 10 feet back and the fighter gets kersplatted.

Once the fighter goes down, everyone else has a serious, serious problem.

8 Ogres is a CR 9 encounter. If you are regularly doing EL+5 encounters without much difficulty, it's time to brush up on your monster tactics. That or the writers of 3.5 D&D were completely off base when they tried to determine how difficult encounters should be.

I will agree that 7 PC's make an ENORMOUS difference. Then again, a party of 7 PC's is about +3-4 levels on their effective party level. That makes 8 ogres about a par encounter.

-------

Edit to add a later thought.

Throughout this thread, I've been told that the reason parties don't need healing is smart play. That they would simply run away from encounter like this and never engage. Yet, when I bring up a virtually overwhelming encounter, the first reaction is to charge right in, blow spells and away we go.

 

[pemerton]

If I was taking on 8 ogres in AD&D I would want an UA 4th level Ranger with two-handed sword specialisation: 55% chance to hit (assuming 16 or lower STR), damage of 3d6+6 (specialisation and class bonus) or 16.5 on a hit. An AD&D ogre has, on average, 19 hp (4+1 HD). My ranger will have, on average, 27.5 hit points (5d8+5 with 15 CON) and AC 3 or better (plate mail armour). I won't be able to take on all 8 ogres by myself, but could probably take 3 or 4 solo and survive.

My impression is that 3E doesn't have offer quite as good an ogre-killing build.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If we're talking strictly melee, I'd start off with a high-damage reach weapon.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Jameson Courage - in other words, it's doable by abusing some of the most broken spells in the game - Glitterdust and Grease and Entangle.

Well, you're the one who said it'd obliterate them. I showed that's not necessarily true (using the base assumptions of the game, just like you were talking about). And, you've been talking about the core assumptions of the game recently, right? I mean, wands of CLW are assumed because they're cheap and available according to the DMG? By that token, shouldn't these level 1 & 2 spells be available to level 4 characters?

Your statement wasn't "magic is broken." It has problems, which is why I toned it down in my RPG. Your statement was basically "8 ogres will obliterate a 4th level 3.X party, where that's not the case in earlier editions." I disagreed, and showed why. Passing it off as "well, magic is broken" is true in a sense, but it demonstrates that your point isn't as valid as it was presented.

Note, we're not supposed to be using spells here since we have to save our highest level spells for later.

As I pointed out, if you're picking the right fights, you won't be. Entangle is a level 1 spell that lasts 4 minutes at level 4, and it uses up a single level 1 spell slot (you have 4 level 1's, and 3 level 2's). So, 1/7 of your spells above level 0. Then, you just ride around on horseback, picking off ogres while skirting the edge of the Entangle spell.

I talked about the "open a door and there's 8 ogres" to show that's it's possible to not be "obliterated" by your 8 ogres example, even when it's not what you were aiming for (which is picking and choosing your battles).

4th level wizard isn't supposed to need to cast his Glitterdust spell according to some.

Or, to put it another way, get a caster or go home.

It's very much in line with 4e's controller role. While magic is too powerful in 3.X from a game balance perspective (in my opinion), I have no idea how that proves your point (that 3.X is more deadly using base assumptions).

Note, the AD&D party is doing this without a caster. They can take on 8 ogres at any time and can probably do it multiple times per day, so long as their HP hold out.

The one with 7 players and henchmen? I'd trust 7 non-casters to take out 8 ogres on horseback in 3.X. Again, picking and choosing your battles. Pepper them at ranged, focus fire, and keep moving. All out run, stop and shoot, all out run, stop and shoot. Dead ogres.

Oh, and btw, Glitterdust is a 10 foot radius spread. Sure, if 4 of the ogres are standing shoulder to shoulder, then you could get half of them. Never mind that the other 4 are STILL going to obliterate your party.

They'd have to get to you, right? Didn't I mention bottlenecking?

Bottlenecking? Good grief, you just want your fighter to die don't you? I've got reach and you don't. I don't need to get into the doorway to hit the fighter. 2 ogres can attack from 10 feet back and the fighter gets kersplatted.

Blind ogres that are probably prone from Grease, while the Fighter is sitting back with a Summon Nature's Ally I in between him and them (with him 10 feet behind the summon). I think I addressed all of this in my post.

Once the fighter goes down, everyone else has a serious, serious problem.

But he probably won't go down. If he does, you keep spontaneously casting summons and staying 10 feet behind them. They'll clog the corridor and keep you out of range.

8 Ogres is a CR 9 encounter. If you are regularly doing EL+5 encounters without much difficulty, it's time to brush up on your monster tactics. That or the writers of 3.5 D&D were completely off base when they tried to determine how difficult encounters should be.

I was just pointing out that with proper player tactics, you can do a lot. You seemed to not be able to fathom how. I hope you can see how, now. A Grease spell will basically immobilize a Frost Giant Jarl at CR 17 (make a DC 10 Balance check at -5). That's a level 1 spell.

No, 3.X wasn't great at placing CR or as good at making out-of-the-gate balanced encounters as 4e is. However, you're basing your assumption that beating higher CR enemies this easily is basically impossible. I'm saying that in 3.X, that may not be the right call to make.

I will agree that 7 PC's make an ENORMOUS difference. Then again, a party of 7 PC's is about +3-4 levels on their effective party level. That makes 8 ogres about a par encounter.

Yeah, we're close to agreement with this. Though, in 3.X it'd be assumed that you're have 5-ish spellcasters out of 7 PCs (if you count paladins and rangers [and rangers get Entangle, too]).

Edit to add a later thought.

Throughout this thread, I've been told that the reason parties don't need healing is smart play. That they would simply run away from encounter like this and never engage. Yet, when I bring up a virtually overwhelming encounter, the first reaction is to charge right in, blow spells and away we go.

I was specifically countering your "if they fought 8 ogres, they'd be obliterated" comment. And, I hope you can see that it's very possible to blow one Grease and a summoned monster and run away. And that you could fight them with one Entangle while pinging them with bows from 300 feet and probably suffer no losses other than ammo and a spell slot. The ogres will only have javelins, and those aren't flying the 300 feet necessary to get to you. Entangle, focus fire ping, dead. You could even attempt to draw the 8 ogres from that room out if you are prepared for it. You blow maybe 3 level 1 slots from two casters, leaving yourself with 5/8 level 1's and 6/6 level 2's. Load up your saddlebags with ammo and you're good.

And heck, since it's assumed that wands are so cheap, buy a Wand of Entangle, and Wand of Grease, and a Wand of Summon Nature's Ally I. More expensive than a healing wand, sure, but you can do so many more encounters with good tactics and those three wands than bludgeoning your way through. Which, again, I think was the point. With a different type of play, you can bypass, take out, or otherwise overcome challenges using the base assumptions of the game.

You can call foul on 3.X magic and CR calculating, and that's not invalid. However, you're the one who was making the argument that the base assumptions of the game assume the party won't win. I used very base mechanics to show that it isn't the case.

As always, play what you like

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Entangle, in the right environment, is amazingly powerful. A low-level party completely obliterated some harpies without taking damage due to that spell.

(I've retold the story many times here.)

 

[Hussar]

Blind ogres that are probably prone from Grease, while the Fighter is sitting back with a Summon Nature's Ally I in between him and them (with him 10 feet behind the summon). I think I addressed all of this in my post.


But he probably won't go down. If he does, you keep spontaneously casting summons and staying 10 feet behind them. They'll clog the corridor and keep you out of range.

And say hello to the 15 minute adventuring day.

And, as a question, why are the 4 blind ogres the ones standing in front? Why wouldn't they move back and let the 4 not blind ogres step up? Note, you're limited to 4th level casters, which means at most 2 summon monster 2's and 4 or 5 Summon Monster 1's (remember, you've already cast Glitterdust). None of these creatures is large, so, I can simply reach over them to hit the fighter. Granted, you can summon 1-3 monsters with Summon 2, but, they're still medium sized at best and a speed bump of less than a round for the 4 ogres that can reach them.

Isn't it funny though. When I talk about how lethal 3e combat is, suddenly we only pick situations where the PC's have every possible advantage (outdoor, everyone mounted and capable of fighting from horseback (did you spend that feat?) and lots of open ground with no cover) or tiny, dead end rooms where the ogres are packed in like sardines.

Yup, if your DM has the tactical skills of a concussed gerbil, then sure, these encounters get very easy. Which just goes to prove my point - that the DM will have a huge impact on how you view things. Much more than the mechanics themselves. Mechanically speaking, this should be a death trap encounter - that's what the mechanics ACTUALLY tell you. But, DM's throwing softball encounters, allowing the players every possible advantage and suddenly people start claiming that 3e let's you do 8 encounters between rest periods.

 

[Hussar]

I would point out one additional thing as well.

It doesn't really matter if the 3e party could possibly defeat this encounter. The fact that you have to play silly buggers with the set up in order to allow it just proves my point.

The AD&D party doesn't need any set up to win this encounter. This is a bog standard 1e encounter. The AD&D party should be able to do this one and five more just like it and not really worry about it.

The 3e party, as has been shown, might be able to do it once. Try doing it five times.

 

[BryonD]

Isn't it funny though. When I talk about how lethal 3e combat is, suddenly we only pick situations where the PC's have every possible advantage (outdoor, everyone mounted and capable of fighting from horseback (did you spend that feat?) and lots of open ground with no cover) or tiny, dead end rooms where the ogres are packed in like sardines.

But the other side of that coin is that not all monsters translated to the same lethality in 3E as they were in prior editions.

I do, in fact, agree with you that 3E is probably more lethal in 3E than 1E/2E. But throwing 2E Ogres against 2E PCs compared to 3E Ogres vs 3E PCs is stacking the deck in favor of lethality just as much as circumstances are against.

I think over the course of honest, organic play the lethality is a bit more, but not wildly so.

It is more important to keep in mind that the concept of character level drifted slightly in 3E and the concept of CR substantially moved the idea of "balance".

Of course, keep in mind that I will forever greatly admire OD&D through 1E as ground-breaking. But I also believed the game design world had evolved past them before 3E came along. 3E simply caught back up. (And did really well at that). So, for me personally, the comparison of anything to 1E may be interesting, but it says nothing of real importance.

Also, even a total agreement that 3E is VASTLY more lethal than prior editions would do NOTHING to solve the narrative gap that causes surges to be deeply flawed for delivering the play style I prefer. All, of course, IMO.

 

[JamesonCourage]

And say hello to the 15 minute adventuring day.

That's if he goes down, which he probably won't.

And, as a question, why are the 4 blind ogres the ones standing in front? Why wouldn't they move back and let the 4 not blind ogres step up?

They potentially could, but Grease probably keeps them prone. And, 6 Int means they may not (according the MM, ogre gangs and bands fight as unorganized individuals).

Note, you're limited to 4th level casters, which means at most 2 summon monster 2's and 4 or 5 Summon Monster 1's (remember, you've already cast Glitterdust). None of these creatures is large, so, I can simply reach over them to hit the fighter.

Dude, I mentioned this. The Fighter is 10 feet behind the summoned creature in the corridor. He's out of reach of the ogre.

Granted, you can summon 1-3 monsters with Summon 2, but, they're still medium sized at best and a speed bump of less than a round for the 4 ogres that can reach them.

With proper positioning, only one ogre can reach them. When you open the door, you move back, throwing the summoned creature into the corridor far enough in that an ogre has to move in to attack it. If it does, this means that no other ogres are withing reach of it, and if you're 10 feet or more behind the summon, it can't reach over to hit you.

Isn't it funny though. When I talk about how lethal 3e combat is, suddenly we only pick situations where the PC's have every possible advantage (outdoor, everyone mounted and capable of fighting from horseback (did you spend that feat?) and lots of open ground with no cover) or tiny, dead end rooms where the ogres are packed in like sardines.

Yeah, it's like it relates back to tactics and picking your battles (and you don't need to spend a feat to fight from horseback. At all). Like I said, you can always clog the corridor with one Summon Nature's Ally spell and one Grease spell. If you're picking your battles, they'll be favorable. Opening a door and finding 8 ogres is improbable most of the time, but I could potentially see it, and fighting in the hallway makes perfect sense. If they're trying to get to you, I don't feel that it's unbelievable that they'd all run as close as possible to attack (6 Int), grouping them together.

Yup, if your DM has the tactical skills of a concussed gerbil, then sure, these encounters get very easy.

No, that's the tactical skills of an ogre. You know, major morons. Same thing for something like wild animals. Most people that are picking their fights stay far away from dragons without wild preparation or special cheese prepared (Shivering Touch, for example).

Which just goes to prove my point - that the DM will have a huge impact on how you view things. Much more than the mechanics themselves.

Yep. I would expect the GM to play the enemies at their intelligence and skill level. Some GMs will just play all enemies at the same skill level. I should know, I started out that way. Then again, I wasn't really a good GM when I started (in my opinion), and I feel that I've learned a lot. One of those things was role playing creatures, and that includes strategy and tactics. In this line, ogres are Grade A morons. I'd expect them to fight like them.

Mechanically speaking, this should be a death trap encounter - that's what the mechanics ACTUALLY tell you.

That's what the designers actually tell you. They say that mechanically, you should die. This leads back to hazy or bad CR placement. You shouldn't necessarily die mechanically. You should die according to the designers and their interpretations of the mechanics they created.

But, DM's throwing softball encounters, allowing the players every possible advantage and suddenly people start claiming that 3e let's you do 8 encounters between rest periods.

... you said that you couldn't understand how, and people said it depends on how you approach encounters. While I'm not huge into tactical wargaming in 3.X (well, wasn't when I played), I can certainly do it. I'm saying that if players want to, they'll take down encounters by being very careful and only getting into fights that they think they can win, and probably easily at that. You said you didn't think it was possible that players could go through 7 fights without healing. Do you see how it definitely is possible?

I would point out one additional thing as well.

It doesn't really matter if the 3e party could possibly defeat this encounter. The fact that you have to play silly buggers with the set up in order to allow it just proves my point.

Um, wasn't the point you were disagreeing with "it works for some people using certain tactics?" And, if so, doesn't this demonstrate that point, not prove yours (since you disagreed)?

The AD&D party doesn't need any set up to win this encounter. This is a bog standard 1e encounter. The AD&D party should be able to do this one and five more just like it and not really worry about it.

The party with 7 PCs, right?

The 3e party, as has been shown, might be able to do it once. Try doing it five times.

With 7 PCs? I'd bet on us. Just my two cents, though. As always, play what you like