I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[Hussar]

I love it when people start selectively quoting to prove their point:

Ogres favor overwhelming odds, sneak attacks, and ambushes over a fair fight. They are intelligent enough to fire ranged weapons first to soften up their foes before closing, but ogre gangs and bands fight as unorganized individuals.

So, I'm intelligent enough to use ranged weapons and organize ambushes, but, I'm too stupid to step back and let you come to me?

The point about the 7 PC's and the 4 PC's though gets back to the GAME ASSUMPTIONS. Basic D&D PRESUMES 7 PC's (well, 6-8) whereas 3e doesn't. I've already stated that the farther you get from game basic presumptions the more different play will be.

But, I'm not talking about your game or my game, I'm talking about how the game is presented.

Funnily enough though, your tactics won't work more than once JamesonCourage. After all, you've blown through all your spells in the first fight. Let's see you do it four more times, all without your wizard anymore.

Like I said, if the DM insists on softballing encounters and giving the PC's every possible advantage and ignoring what's actually written in the rules, then sure, you're going to get results that are very different than what's presumed by the rules. That's pretty much obvious.

Yes, you'd get through this fight with those certain tactics, but, those "certain tactics" are only viable because you're insisting on softball encounters.

But, this is just going around in circles. Insisting on very specific examples and then trying to extrapolate from that is pointless. "Oh, well, the group can win in this very small corner case where they have every possible advantage." We'll just ignore the fact that ogres have ranged attacks. 8 javelin shots and dead horse. No more running away for this group. Why am I stepping in the grease when I've got 4 ranged attacks per round on the fighter? And, because you've nicely greased the entrance, your summonings can't come in either. Of course, the fact that you've set the encounter in a dead end.. well... doesn't every ogre always lair in a dead end cave? *uhoh*

Yeah, I'm done here. You guys are taking your specific, idiosyncratic games and then applying it to mean that this is anything other than your idiosyncratic game. The mechanics disagree with you. The designers disagree with you. But, apparently, that doesn't mean anything.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why am I stepping in the grease when I've got 4 ranged attacks per round on the fighter? And, because you've nicely greased the entrance, your summonings can't come in either.

Not all summoned creatures walk, you know, meaning grease isn't of concern to them.

Yeah, I'm done here. You guys are taking your specific, idiosyncratic games and then applying it to mean that this is anything other than your idiosyncratic game. The mechanics disagree with you. The designers disagree with you. But, apparently, that doesn't mean anything.

I'll just say this: I have never claimed that the tactics our group uses are effective 100% of the time, only that they work well enough for us to do what you say we cannot possibly be doing, namely, averaging more than 4 encounters between rests.

We've had serious setbacks. At least one campaign ended in a virtual TPK. Sometimes, we even screw ourselves with our own tactics. And of course, smarter foes present greater challenges.

But, by and large, our magic miserliness and melee tactics enable us to expect to do 4+ encounters between replenishing our resources.

 

[billd91]

But, this is just going around in circles. Insisting on very specific examples and then trying to extrapolate from that is pointless. "Oh, well, the group can win in this very small corner case where they have every possible advantage." We'll just ignore the fact that ogres have ranged attacks. 8 javelin shots and dead horse. No more running away for this group. Why am I stepping in the grease when I've got 4 ranged attacks per round on the fighter?

Well, there is a 7 point difference in attack values. They may do substantial damage if they hit, but the likelihood of doing so is a lot less than in melee. They'll need to roll a 13, assuming no range penalties, to hit a warhorse. They'll need a 17 to hit a fighter in breastplate and shield with moderate Dex, a 20 if the target is a dwarf or he grabs even the slightest cover. Meanwhile, the archer PC with better range is having an easier time peppering the ogre.

All things considered, the party is probably much better off trading missiles with the ogres, and probably suffering less than 20% loss in resources despite facing an encounter with EL equal to or better than the group's average character level.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I love it when people start selectively quoting to prove their point:

So, I'm intelligent enough to use ranged weapons and organize ambushes, but, I'm too stupid to step back and let you come to me?

You might, but not in concert with the other ogres. You'll move back if you're blind, perhaps, but you won't move the four blind ogres away so that the other four can cram in (as you suggested). That's not fighting as an unorganized individual (which they do).

The point about the 7 PC's and the 4 PC's though gets back to the GAME ASSUMPTIONS. Basic D&D PRESUMES 7 PC's (well, 6-8) whereas 3e doesn't. I've already stated that the farther you get from game basic presumptions the more different play will be.

Okay, fair enough. I'm trying to show that designer assumptions are off when it comes to 3.X, so using them as a base for your argument isn't a great tactic in my mind.

But, I'm not talking about your game or my game, I'm talking about how the game is presented.

And I'm talking about how it's played using the base mechanics.

Funnily enough though, your tactics won't work more than once JamesonCourage. After all, you've blown through all your spells in the first fight. Let's see you do it four more times, all without your wizard anymore.

Dude, I covered the spells. You lose 1 level 2 and two level 1's. That leaves you able to repeat that one more time, and that's if you decide to stand and fight (I also mentioned retreating after spending two level 1's, drawing them out, and fighting them on better terms). Yeah, standing and fighting would essentially be two fights without basic magic equipment (like scrolls or wands). In a fight that you said "would obliterate them" and according to you is CR+5.

In a CR 4 fight, it's what, maybe two ogres? One Grease will probably handle them while the rogue deals sneak attack. If you want to feel extra safe, block them with a Summon Nature's Ally. You'll take them down with ranged attacks before they get up and make it to you. When you do, you've used 2 level 1 spell slots. This is 2 out of 14 spell slots above level 0. You can do this 7 times with base spell slots, and that's not using base assumptions of the system (scrolls and wands).

Like I said, if the DM insists on softballing encounters and giving the PC's every possible advantage and ignoring what's actually written in the rules, then sure, you're going to get results that are very different than what's presumed by the rules. That's pretty much obvious.

This is amusing, since you're taking the designer's assumption as correct and throwing a CR+5 encounter at the party (overwhelming, according to the designers). Either the assumptions about the game as presented are correct and the GM isn't softballing, or the assumptions are wrong and some creatures aren't appropriately challenging as presented against certain tactics (which would mean, of course, that an anomaly like a party taking more encounters "than it should be able to" shouldn't really be unbelievable.

Yes, you'd get through this fight with those certain tactics, but, those "certain tactics" are only viable because you're insisting on softball encounters.

The rogue probably has +15 or so to Hide and Move Silently. If he's sneaking ahead, he'll be able to detect the ogres much, much more easily than they can detect him (they get +2 to Spot and Listen). So, yeah, if you can make out what your enemies are, you can often arrange to foil their ambushes or prepare for the fight in favorable ways.

But, this is just going around in circles. Insisting on very specific examples and then trying to extrapolate from that is pointless. "Oh, well, the group can win in this very small corner case where they have every possible advantage."

I actually talked about a few scenarios where the players used tactics that favored them. Were you thinking something more like a gladiatorial arena?

We'll just ignore the fact that ogres have ranged attacks. 8 javelin shots and dead horse. No more running away for this group.

I think I mentioned being 300 feet away. You aren't throwing it that far. If the horse all out runs, even if they all out run, you've doubled their distance. That's an all out run, stop and focus fire, and repeat. They can never hit you.

Why am I stepping in the grease when I've got 4 ranged attacks per round on the fighter? And, because you've nicely greased the entrance, your summonings can't come in either.

Well to be fair, if the summon entered, he'd be mush. We want him to clog the doorway, not fight. And, some ogres could definitely use javelins. Depending on preparedness, tables could be set up for full or partial cover, or you could even draw the ogres to the previous room, trap him in the next doorway, and move around the corner so you can hit him but he can't hit you, and neither of the others would have line of sight to you. Hell, you can do that last tactic even if you aren't prepared.

Of course, the fact that you've set the encounter in a dead end.. well... doesn't every ogre always lair in a dead end cave? *uhoh*

I know they're in temperate hills. That's about it. In a generic "we open the door and find 8 ogres", I was pointing out that it's not going to be "the party is obliterated" necessarily. You threw what you thought was a really rigged fight out there, and I'm trying to show how that's not the case. Throw two ogres at the party and see how it goes.

Yeah, I'm done here. You guys are taking your specific, idiosyncratic games and then applying it to mean that this is anything other than your idiosyncratic game. The mechanics disagree with you. The designers disagree with you. But, apparently, that doesn't mean anything.

If what I'm saying works mechanically, the mechanics agree with me. The designers disagreed with me, but I have a feeling they don't as of this point in the life cycle of the game. The books disagree with me, yeah, but I think I've shown where they're lacking.

You argued that 7 PCs against 8 ogres is a base assumption for Basic D&D. I said make it 7 PCs against 8 ogres in 3.X and I'll bet on the PCs, and you said "no, that's not the core assumption!" If we're going by core assumptions, Grease, Summoned monsters, Gitterdust, Web (which would own that corridor and give total cover against ranged weapons, as well as lasting 40 minutes), scrolls, wands, etc. are all part of base assumptions in 3.X. If you're looking at a base fight, it's 2 ogres against 4 PCs. I think that the PCs can reasonably tear up those two ogres, especially with tactics.

You can't say "7 PCs can take 8 ogres in Basic, so it's more lethal" and turn around and say "7 PCs can't fight 8 ogres in 3.X, that's not the base assumption!" Isn't the point the numbers? And, if we're just going by the core assumptions, isn't that all I've worked with (except for some reason I'm fighting a CR+5 fight instead of 2 ogres)? Which is it, are we using the same numbers to look at lethality, or the base assumptions of the system (Basic of 7 PCs against 8 ogres or 3.X 4 PCs against 2 ogres)?

I feel like the goalposts are shifting, here. Maybe you feel I'm softballing, but if you think the designers are right, a CR+5 fight isn't softballing. It's "overpowering" to the PCs. According to the DMG, "the players should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose. The Encounter Level is five or more levels higher than the party." Softball... yeah. Good PC strategy and tactics can win this fight, but it's no "softball" encounter. And, judging by your initial "they'd obliterate the PCs" comment, you didn't think so either.

I'll say this much, 4e is a lot more solid than 3.X when it comes to judging difficulty of monsters. A lot more solid. I think basing your opinion on designer assumptions is a mistake against certain PC tactics, which was the point all along. Certain PC tactics will let you go up against a fight you "should" lose and come out victorious. Danny A originally presented this line of thought, and you couldn't fathom how. You've reduced it to broken magic ("go caster or go home") and "softballing" (even against an "overpowering" encounter, since you're sticking to the designer's assumptions, and not the mechanics). Broken magic was never in question (that's in many other threads), and softballing seems rather unreasonable if you believe the designer assumptions were correct.

I think my well-oiled party with base assumptions (wands, scrolls, standard spells) could go through 7 CR appropriate fights without needing to heal. That's what, two ogres 7 times? Makes me wish I had said I'd pick a dwarven fighter, they get a nice +4 dodge bonus to AC against ogres. Yeah, I feel okay with certain players saying they take more than 4 fights per rest cycle. Especially once you get away from core books. YMMV, but this thing you can't fathom? It's not unfathomable to me. As always, play what you like

 

[Hussar]

Let's actually walk through this shall we?

Heck, we'll really softball the encounter and give PC's surprise.

Surprise round: Wizard drops Glitterdust, catching all 4 ogres and they all fail their save. Fighter falls back a bit to block up the doorway.

Round 1: PC's get initiative. Wizard drops Grease in the doorway. Fighter shoots arrows through. Ogre uses his reach and closes the door. Oops, we're not supposed to be that smart. Ok, 4 ogres throw javelins at the wizard. Wizard dies.


What? You mean I'm only allowed to attack the fighter? Ok, fine, we're really going to softball this encounter.

Ogre charges fighter, slipping in the grease and stopping prone at the fighter's feet, still in the grease zone. Three ogres pepper the fighter with javelins.

Round 2. Wizard starts casting summon monster. Fighter and prone ogre trade blows. Three ogres pepper the fighter with javelins. Cleric heals fighter who's probably well below half hp now. Rogue stands back and shoots at blind ogres. Wizard summons 2 celestial owls (for flight).

Fight continues. As one ogre finally dies, Ogre #2 steps into grease, followed by Ogre 3 and Ogre 4. Cleric runs out of healing LONG before I run out of ogres, fighter dies. Then cleric dies. Wizard and rogue beat feet.

And I'm talking about how it's played using the base mechanics.

No, you're showing how its played when the DM softballs encounters and gives the PC's every possible advantage.

See, the thing is, even in a standard encounter with 2 ogres (standard EL encounter for a 4th level party), I've got a very, very good chance of killing PC's. I'm certainly going to force you to use your 25% of resources. Which, according to those in this thread, you should never have to do, since you can routinely go through 6-8 encounters per day.

I totally agree that you can. But, to do so, you have to change around a few play assumptions - namely you have to use a lot of softball encounters.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Surprise round: Wizard drops Glitterdust, catching all 4 ogres and they all fail their save. Fighter falls back a bit to block up the doorway.

Round 1: PC's get initiative. Wizard drops Grease in the doorway. Fighter shoots arrows through. Ogre uses his reach and closes the door. Oops, we're not supposed to be that smart. Ok, 4 ogres throw javelins at the wizard. Wizard dies.

Have you forgotten that you assumed the ogres all failed their saves vs Glitterdust? They're all blind for at least 4 rounds, meaning a 50% miss chance against all foes- FTR or Mage- plus an AC penalty and no dex bonuses. They're going to be easier to hit, and their odds of hitting are poor. Because of total concealment due to blindness, they can't even attack the PCs normally- they have to guess what square their targets are in. They move half speed, max.

If nothing else, this begs the question of why cast Grease?

The party shouldn't retreat to take advantage of bottlenecking- they should advance to take advantage of foes who can't even take AoOs against them. This means positioning for flanking could be fairly easy (depending on actual positioning), letting the party stack a combat bonus (flanking) on top of a combat penalty (the ogres' AC penalties due to blindness).

In our party, that means the Wiz doesn't have to do much for a couple of rounds, and should enjoy putting crossbow bolts in ogres while the melee types get some quality carving in.

If the ogres survive to round 3, he might consider casting another spell...like Grease. But if things are as well in hand as I'd expect them to be, there wouldn't be much point.

Assuming they were still around and not in horrible condition, the Wiz doesn't cast his second spell- Grease- until the round before the Glitterdust expires. With a penalty to their Dex, the blinded ogres are almost sure to fall prone, allowing the melee types to continue carving them up with a minimum of risk.

 

[LostSoul]

Some thoughts:

The wizard should probably start off with a Web instead of Glitterdust. It'll entangle (-4 dex) them, provide cover (-4 to ranged attacks) or total cover (which is better than a 50% miss chance), and hold them back for a while. Keep the Glitterdust if they start breaking free and things are looking dire.

Grease can be jumped over pretty easily.

Summon Nature's Ally I would not be a good bet; Summon Nature's Ally II would be better. A wolverine could last a while and give you time to summon some wolves.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Dont get me wrong-Web is a solid choice- but the main problem with it in this instance is the DC20 Str check to escape it- the easiest way to escape it, basically, and Str being something the ogres have in abundance. Despite its otherwise superior duration and AoE, it runs a greater risk of being overcome by the ogres.

(It's probably ideal if they're pursuing, though.)

The beauty of Grease as Glitterdust expires is that the blinded ogres will be at an additional penalty to make their reflex checks due to being blind. This virtually assures the survivors end up prone...and thus, unlikely to be jumping anywhere.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Let's actually walk through this shall we?

Heck, we'll really softball the encounter and give PC's surprise.

Though this is not unlikely in reality.

Surprise round: Wizard drops Glitterdust, catching all 4 ogres and they all fail their save. Fighter falls back a bit to block up the doorway.

Where the heck is the druid and and rogue (putting a creature blocking the doorway and using sneak attack)?

Round 1: PC's get initiative. Wizard drops Grease in the doorway. Fighter shoots arrows through. Ogre uses his reach and closes the door. Oops, we're not supposed to be that smart. Ok, 4 ogres throw javelins at the wizard. Wizard dies.

Hang on, where is the rogue and druid? And, why is the wizard getting hit four times when the ogres get +1 to attack? And, why is he visible? Did the PCs open the door? If so, why didn't they draw them back to the last room to clog them like I mentioned in my last post?

What? You mean I'm only allowed to attack the fighter? Ok, fine, we're really going to softball this encounter.

Um, I'm just not sure how this is working out so far.

Ogre charges fighter, slipping in the grease and stopping prone at the fighter's feet, still in the grease zone. Three ogres pepper the fighter with javelins.

And hitting him only on a natural 16, right (10 + 6 banded mail + 1 Dex = 17 AC)? Or a natural 20 if he had his tower shield, right? Though, he probably has total cover from it, too, so not hitting him even then (they hit the shield). I guess you assumed all four ogres failed their will saves, so it's fair to assume that one javelin hits the fighter. Again, not going to happen if they used the last tactic I mentioned and drew them back to the previous room to bottelneck them with readied actions.

Round 2. Wizard starts casting summon monster.

This is the druids job. Is there only a fighter and a wizard?

Fighter and prone ogre trade blows. Three ogres pepper the fighter with javelins.

Why is he slugging it out?! Didn't I specifically mention him either using a tower shield to clog the corridor or using a ranged weapon from out of reach?

Cleric heals fighter who's probably well below half hp now. Rogue stands back and shoots at blind ogres. Wizard summons 2 celestial owls (for flight).

Summoned creatures aren't the way to go, and we should have a druid and not a cleric, but at least the rogue is finally acting. You know, on round 2, after losing out on 4d6 sneak attack (plus another 2d4 from a bow).

Fight continues. As one ogre finally dies, Ogre #2 steps into grease, followed by Ogre 3 and Ogre 4. Cleric runs out of healing LONG before I run out of ogres, fighter dies. Then cleric dies. Wizard and rogue beat feet.

Why the heck did they slug it out after I've mentioned tactics where they specifically aren't supposed to? Is this your standard PC tactics (it basically is for mine)? If so, can you see how following the tactics I've mentioned might, you know, not result in this? Especially if there's the group I mentioned, and they all act during surprise and round 1

No, you're showing how its played when the DM softballs encounters and gives the PC's every possible advantage.

When the players go out of there way to gain every possible advantage, really.

See, the thing is, even in a standard encounter with 2 ogres (standard EL encounter for a 4th level party), I've got a very, very good chance of killing PC's. I'm certainly going to force you to use your 25% of resources. Which, according to those in this thread, you should never have to do, since you can routinely go through 6-8 encounters per day.

I totally agree that you can. But, to do so, you have to change around a few play assumptions - namely you have to use a lot of softball encounters.

Are you against the players being very careful, gaining surprise, and using tactics, teamwork, obstacles, and terrain to their advantage? I doubt you are opposed to it, but with the players and PCs working in concert, it makes a world of difference in play.

Some thoughts:

The wizard should probably start off with a Web instead of Glitterdust. It'll entangle (-4 dex) them, provide cover (-4 to ranged attacks) or total cover (which is better than a 50% miss chance), and hold them back for a while. Keep the Glitterdust if they start breaking free and things are looking dire.

I did mention Web in my last post, but apparently Hussar disregarded it (which is fine, I also mentioned Grease and Glitterdust). If it's giving total cover (which is will from far enough away), it'll literally block attacks. Total concealment is 50% miss chance, total cover just makes you hit the Web.

Grease can be jumped over pretty easily.

Depending on the size of the ceiling, that's true. It should be avoided if that's the case.

Summon Nature's Ally I would not be a good bet; Summon Nature's Ally II would be better. A wolverine could last a while and give you time to summon some wolves.

I'm not planning on them winning in melee, they're just there to clog the corridor to keep PCs safe. If anything, a Summon Nature's Ally II for 1d3 creatures, perhaps.

The party shouldn't retreat to take advantage of bottlenecking- they should advance to take advantage of foes who can't even take AoOs against them. This means positioning for flanking could be fairly easy (depending on actual positioning), letting the party stack a combat bonus (flanking) on top of a combat penalty (the ogres' AC penalties due to blindness).

I wouldn't close in, personally, but I would use a Ghost Sound to make the ogres think I did, and get them swinging at each other (or at least grappling or something). Get the focus away from the PCs. Their bad AC against ranged attacks should be more than good enough. Just a different tactical decision, though.

 

[Hussar]

Have you forgotten that you assumed the ogres all failed their saves vs Glitterdust? They're all blind for at least 4 rounds, meaning a 50% miss chance against all foes- FTR or Mage- plus an AC penalty and no dex bonuses. They're going to be easier to hit, and their odds of hitting are poor. Because of total concealment due to blindness, they can't even attack the PCs normally- they have to guess what square their targets are in. They move half speed, max.

If nothing else, this begs the question of why cast Grease?

The party shouldn't retreat to take advantage of bottlenecking- they should advance to take advantage of foes who can't even take AoOs against them. This means positioning for flanking could be fairly easy (depending on actual positioning), letting the party stack a combat bonus (flanking) on top of a combat penalty (the ogres' AC penalties due to blindness).

In our party, that means the Wiz doesn't have to do much for a couple of rounds, and should enjoy putting crossbow bolts in ogres while the melee types get some quality carving in.

If the ogres survive to round 3, he might consider casting another spell...like Grease. But if things are as well in hand as I'd expect them to be, there wouldn't be much point.

Assuming they were still around and not in horrible condition, the Wiz doesn't cast his second spell- Grease- until the round before the Glitterdust expires. With a penalty to their Dex, the blinded ogres are almost sure to fall prone, allowing the melee types to continue carving them up with a minimum of risk.

What happened to the other 4 ogres? There were 8 in the group after all. You only blinded half of them and I would assume that the blinded ogres would just fall back and the sighted ogres would attack. After the 4 rounds of the 4 ogres beating on the party, the other 4 ogres would be back into it.

So, no I didn't forget anything. I just ignored the blinded ogres because they'd likely be innefectual.