D&D 5E 5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her

[Dungeonosophy]

Thanks for the interesting research jonesy.

The ultimate goals in BECMI aren't about destruction or defeating anything. They are about shaping the universe, and about becoming the ultimate creators.

Yes, I'm with you. Despite my macholicious aggression toward the Overdeities, I'm not especially advocating that Deity-level or Overdeity-level adventures be mostly combat. I'm thrilled that posters in this thread have pointed out there's all sorts of fun things to do in Deity-level adventures.

Look, the points of this thread are:

1) To make sure that the 5e designers include Immortal/Deity-level PC rules, as vigorous and detailed as the Classic D&D iteration. This includes stats, since that is a key feature of D&D as a game.

2) To make sure that all the 5e published settings are presented in a way that PCs are welcome to eventually fill every tier of power, from taking over an Empire, to becoming a Deity, to supplanting the Overdeity himself, or herself, whether it be Io the Dragon, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft, Lord Ao, the Lady of Sigil, the High God of Krynn, or the Old Ones of Mystara.

3) To encourage my fellow D&D heroes to shake off the unmanly browbeating that the Second Edition authors drummed into the fans, saying that our PCs are ant-like cretins who will never beat the gods. That's nihilistic poppycock. That's why I get wild and gonzo.

In the Immortals Set, it's all laid out for the PCs to become the 36th-level Hierarchs of the Multiverse. This involves defeating the existing Hierarchs. If this feature of CD&D isn't supported, then, in my mind, 5e won't be the edition to unite all editions.

 

[Savage Wombat]

If that's really your intent, then you should not simply hand these victories over the forces of the universe by giving them stats.

If your PC can overthrow the Dark Powers of Ravenloft without inflicting 13,370 HP of damage to them, THEN it's a worthy accomplishment.

Or are you unmanly that you can only defeat a foe that is subject to physical law?

 

[Dungeonosophy]

It should also be added that if you side with Entropy you become an NPC.

Well, I'm not saying that the late '80s BECMI Immortals Rules are perfect, ready to be inserted into 5e.

BECMI D&D was replaced by Rules Cyclopedia D&D. RCD&D collected and slightly revised the Basic through Masters rules. As a companion to RCD&D, the Immortals set was replaced by the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set, which gave entirely different Immortals-level rules. So Classic D&D has two distinct Deity-level rules sets.



I wonder if even Monte Cook and Mike Mearls are really fluent in this esoterica. So, for research in preparation of 5e Deities & Demigods, I'd like the 5e designers to study the concrete evolution of Deity-level play:

• CD&D Immortals Set and Wrath of the Immortals set, playing through all three IM adventures​
• 1e Deities & Demigods rules and stats
• 2e Legends & Lore and God/Avatar-related rules and stats in Planescape and elsewhere, for example divine rank.
• 3e Deities & Demigods and other Deity-related rules and stats
• 4e Deity stats

Then distill all this into a God-level PC rules module for 5e Deities & Demigods.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

If your PC can overthrow the Dark Powers of Ravenloft without inflicting 13,370 HP of damage to them, THEN it's a worthy accomplishment.

Or are you unmanly that you can only defeat a foe that is subject to physical law?

I'm not especially attached to "sword-swinging". I acknowledge what has been said about not just making Deity PCs have an Axe+20. The Gold Box Immortal class had a complicated system of Power Points. It was sorta like a Superhero rules system, with all sorts of Powers.

In fact, the Cosmic-levels of Superhero roleplay (Green Lantern, Silver Surfer, the Spectre, Galactus, the Watchers) is similar to Immortal/Deity-level play or Overdeity-level play.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

AFAIR, some recent blog (which some of you have probably read, does anyone have the link?) suggested that Epic- and Deity-level characters ought to be recrafted on a new character sheet. I agree. The character ought to be distilled, and recast rules-wise.

Likewise, at each tier: Epic-, Deity-, and Overdeity-level, the ruleset ought to morph into a whole new D&D game. At each metamorphosis, the minutiae falls away, and new stats appear on the character sheet. For example, many Epic-level PCs will rule a Dominion. So, the Dominon could have its own Character Sheet. (Please see CD&D's Dominion rules and 2e's Birthright)

At Deity-level play, "Followers" becomes a stat, or even an entire "Character Sheet" of its own.

For Overdeities, the Cosmos they created (using 5e Worldbuilding rules) has its own character sheet.

 

[jonesy]

Well, I'm not saying that the late '80s BECMI Immortals Rules are perfect, ready to be inserted into 5e.

BECMI D&D was replaced by Rules Cyclopedia D&D. RCD&D collected and slightly revised the Basic through Masters rules. As a companion to RCD&D, the Immortals set was replaced by the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set, which gave entirely different Immortals-level rules. So Classic D&D has two distinct Deity-level rules sets.

Not entirely different. And Rules Cyclopedia is even less about taking over existing positions, since it no longer had a limit to how many Immortals there could be on any of the power levels. Hierarchs especially were no longer singular.

Entropy was changed so that it no longer favoured any alignment, and wasn't about neutrality. The balance aspect was now a balance between all of the five spheres of power, as it's stated that Entropy can't exist without the other Spheres. There's no clear mention of whether Entropy PC's are allowed or not, as far as I can tell. DM discretion and all that, I suppose.

Biggest problem in my opinion with the Wrath of the Immortals approach was that it had both the Master rules guidelines for mortal PC's dealing with NPC Immortals, and guidelines for running PC immortals in the same parts which often muddles up what it's talking about. Having them be separate was clearer. Especially when Rules Cyclopedia also talks about Immortals, so it's not really all in the same book even then.

 

[kitsune9]

So. For 5e I'll be looking for stats for the Lady of Pain

Is anyone with me?

Oh nooooo! Not the Lady of Pain. Anybody but the Lady of Pain! Go kill Lord Ao or someone like that.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Planescape really requires a different mindset than a more "typical" D&D setting.

The Planescape setting is largely undefined. If you read through some of the setting material, one of the things that stands out about NPCs, locations, organizations, etc. is that much of the details are left to the DM to define. The text often talks about what is believed or what is rumored. It is up to the DM to fill in these blanks. This is an important aspect of the setting, and it is part of what keeps the planes mysterious and dangerous. And, this ambiguity extends to the Lady of Pain.

You see, one of the biggest draws of Planescape is exploration. The players want to find out what's out there, not just their PCs. If it was defined in a book somewhere, then they would know what was out there, and the draw of exploration wouldn't have the same power. Reading a passage from a book as a player makes you want to go there in game. Reading the same passage as a DM gives all kind of inspiration about what could be out there. The same goes for NPCs. Who are they? What is their motivation? A player wants to meet them (or avoid them!) while a DM wants to mold them to his own devices and use them.

I'll give an example that wraps around back to the Lady of Pain. This is the ultra short version. The campaign lasted 15 or so years.

My most successful Planescape game revolved around a brief description of a monster called gautier found in one of the monstrous compendiums. It talked about an ancient temple located somewhere in the Outlands long lost, where they had trapped their god. I took this and made a campaign where they were an ancient race that existed during the shaping of the Multiverse. Their temple was torn asunder onto every plane of existence, and the players one by one explored them all, opening the way to the lost temple. That temple was the Spire. And, Sigil and the Lady were the dream of the gautier diety/old one/thing, long imprisoned and sleeping. In the end, the Multiverse was shattered and the heroes lost, or perhaps made into gods themselves.

The draw, the power, of Planescape is taking those ambiguous lines and learning about them in game, the only place where they can be made to exist. The Lady of Pain is ambiguous not because of any of those reasons you list in the OP. There's no one upmanship, no adolescent control that the the designers were trying to pull off. It's the total opposite. Planescape is about freedom. Freedom of the DM, freedom of the players. Any attempt to stat out the Lady of Pain, or even attempt to define what she is in the text, would be antithetical to the setting. It would go against everything good about Planescape.

And on that note, Planescape is not about combat. Sure, combat happens. It's D&D. But, Planescape is about the battle of beliefs just as much as the battle of physical or magical power. The real power attained in a Planescape campaign is often knowledge, political capital, and reputation. Work your way up the Faction ladders, take control as the power behind the throne, learn portal networks, discover the secrets others' want to keep the most hidden from you, and convince others to follow your truth as you tell it. Then you achieve real power in Planescape.

A good portion of the books were trying to describe these things while pulling those playing in the setting away from the kick in the door, kill 'em all, style of play that you can get from myriads of other settings. It would be counter-productive to in one breath talk about how Planescape is different and not about combat, then to stat up a being of power who the PCs were never really supposed to fight anyway. That would be a terrible mixed message to give, and so there are no stats for deities, and there are no stats for the Lady of Pain.

So, basically, I hope I've explained a few things about what Planescape was about and why these decisions were made. If you don't like it, that's fine, but immaterial. If you don't like the fact that the Lady of Pain isn't killable, then you can kill her in your game. But, she must never be statted up in any official source. And, I hope you now realize why that is.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

But, she must never be statted up in any official source. And, I hope you now realize why that is.

Well, I'm glad that Sigil is no longer the center of the multiverses.

 

[Yora]

Well, the rest of the multiverse is also not in the multiverse anymore. Sigil was the last remnant of Planescape in the core cosmology. It's better to have Planescape the separate setting that it is and not mixing parts of it up with other cosmologies.