L&L 5/21 - Hit Points, Our Old Friend

[UngeheuerLich]

d8 for rogues and d6 for wizards is common in many clones now. d4 hp are no fun. d6 are not a lot of fun for melee characters either.

*speculation mode on* also don´t forget, that constitution modifier largely has an effect on hit dice. You add your con modifier to hit dice. *speculation mode off*

I certainly like hitdice as some form of power reserves. Maybe the difference in actual hitpoints won´t be that large (like in 4e), but a fighter recovers a lot faster from bruises, especially if his constitution is high.

I expect hp at level 1 at about constitution + maybe a little class bonus. Only maybe 3-5 hp per level. Which will bring the fighter to about 60 hp at level 10.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The issue was never a problem with magical healing (for most people). It was that D&D was based on multiple encounters and the only way to do that was forcing someone to play a healer class or handing potions out like candy as multiple encounters needed faster healing.

I understand, and people who made the shift to 4e generally seem to be in that camp. My point is lots of people who didn't make the shift never saw any of this stuff as a problem in need of fixing. I think there is really gulf between the two camps over how to approach designing an edition of D&D, one is "what is wrong with D&D and how can we fix it." the other is "what is right about D&D and how can we make it even better". In my opinion the reason 4e seemed like such a break for many fans it it took the first approach. I am not saying the first approach is wrong, but taking it will naturally lead you to satisfy fans of the game who always had issues with some of its core elements, while possibly alienating those who liked it and just wanted some basic improvements.

 

[Bedrockgames]

A lot of the complaints were from people who's imagination couldn't divorce HPs from physical wounds, so this seems to attempt to address it.

That os definitely true. I myself registered that complaint. On reflection I think it is just the most glaring issue healing surges raised for me. But on a deeper level it is also about the mechanic itself and the added complexity. So there is the aesthetic level, where hs presented problems if you felt they mucked with physical healing. But there is also just a straight mechanical issue of hit points hit the sweet spot because of their simplicity. I thini this is why I didn't like earlier attempts to add stuff like wounds to the d20 system.

 

[Scribble]

That os definitely true. I myself registered that complaint. On reflection I think it is just the most glaring issue healing surges raised for me. But on a deeper level it is also about the mechanic itself and the added complexity. So there is the aesthetic level, where hs presented problems if you felt they mucked with physical healing. But there is also just a straight mechanical issue of hit points hit the sweet spot because of their simplicity. I thini this is why I didn't like earlier attempts to add stuff like wounds to the d20 system.

I myself have never had a problem with HPs or their simplicity. I liked 4e's version because it added a new way to heal without always having to rely on magic. I've also never really looked at HPs as physical wounds though.

 

[Kaodi]

FireLance is thinking what I am thinking, more or less: Total HP are going to have to be higher than your daily capacity for mundane healing.

One other thing I do not remember seeing mentioned: if being knocked down below 0 HP is supposed to represent a horrible wound, is that going to affect how you use your HD?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think there should probably be a way (via module or somesuch) to avoid having to use them -- this is probably just as simple as giving PC's a few extra buckets of HP and saying "go wild." Especially possible given that healing magic isn't tied directly to the HD.

I don't mind them. Making the fiction of "bloodied" explicit is a big help in that.

The other side of the coin will be in how many HD a character can spend and when. If a character is "bloodied," she shouldn't be able to recover to full HP with five minutes and some bandages. If a character is KO'd this is ESPECIALLY the case. But if a character isn't bloodied, five minutes and some salves are probably enough.

The warlord-style shouting-heals also play into this a bit. Getting you to ignore that you're severely damaged? Okay -- we can implement that by giving you a lower "bloodied" or "KO'd" thershold, maybe. But it isn't going to give you HP BACK. It doesn't heal your wounds, it lets you ignore them.

There's a few ways this could still go a bit screwy, but it's not the clusterflock on the surface of it that 4e healing surges were, and that's largely thanks to a more explicit description of hit points and what they mean. Tie some mechanics into those descriptions, and we've got ourselves a halfway decent health system.

 

[Minigiant]

I understand, and people who made the shift to 4e generally seem to be in that camp. My point is lots of people who didn't make the shift never saw any of this stuff as a problem in need of fixing. I think there is really gulf between the two camps over how to approach designing an edition of D&D, one is "what is wrong with D&D and how can we fix it." the other is "what is right about D&D and how can we make it even better". In my opinion the reason 4e seemed like such a break for many fans it it took the first approach. I am not saying the first approach is wrong, but taking it will naturally lead you to satisfy fans of the game who always had issues with some of its core elements, while possibly alienating those who liked it and just wanted some basic improvements.

I don't think it is one approach or the other. Only fixing the bad or cleaning the good are both recipes for disaster.

The issue is which one has more focus and who chooses what is good and bad. It is what every good DM must do every game. Pleasing both groups with be a tough task for WotC. But for the most part, fixing the bad ks the better reason for a new edition.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Nope, they aren't...

Warder

By itself, HD does not appear to be really surgelike. Needing 10 minutes to use HD recovery, no second wind during combat, etc.

I just hope the consequences for dropping to 0 HP are a bit nastier than 4E. Once someone drops it should take some time (more than a nights rest) to get back in fighting shape.

If this yet another edition featuring combatants getting up from negative hp and fighting again instantly its gonna land on the do not want pile.

 

[am181d]

If this yet another edition featuring combatants getting up from negative hp and fighting again instantly its gonna land on the do not want pile.

I don't understand that kind of thinking. People wake up from being unconscious without bed rest all the time, both in real life and heroic fiction. (Particularly in heroic fiction.)

Why would you want a recovery system that is both unrealistic and undramatic?

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I just hope the consequences for dropping to 0 HP are a bit nastier than 4E. Once someone drops it should take some time (more than a nights rest) to get back in fighting shape.

If this yet another edition featuring combatants getting up from negative hp and fighting again instantly its gonna land on the do not want pile.

Do you mean without magical healing?