Save or suck Medusa petrification

[IronWolf]

The thresholds already exist for spells though. For example, if the cultists cast Hold Person on you, the threshold is relevant (not that any of the PCs can actually exceed it). Sleep is another example of this mechanic in play.

Interesting! I had not made it to the Sleep and Hold Person spells yet. Still not sure I like the mechanic, but if they do decide to stick with that mechanic I could see it might be applicable to apply to petrifying gaze as well.

Really, it's not all that different from the old HD limits on certain effects, except that you can wear down stronger creatures to the point where they become susceptible. That's an improvement in my book.
[

Yeah, I default to "well it should just be based on HD, its easier." But I say that because that is what I know and am used to. If it did switch to an HP value it could let those typically low level spells become useful again at later stages of combat.

Might take me a bit to warm up to it, but I am keeping an open mind. I need to actually get some players so I can see how it plays out in combat!

I don't think so. At the point where the party is at half hp and out of healing, it's time to rest anyway. Anything more than a trivial fight is likely to be deadly at that point.

 

[Walking Dad]

I disagree, if you're within 30 feet, you can see her eyes. Unless she's averting her eyes, which she obviously wouldn't, you have to avert your eyes to avoid her gaze. And averting your eyes means you are at disadvantage to the medusa and granting advantage to ANYTHING that attacks you.

There is nothing that says you have to try to attack her or she has to try to attack you. All you have to do is look at her.

You extrapolate the fluff, not reading the actual rules. It says "it", not anyone or that you get penalized on other actions.

And I just read her area of the Caves of Chaos... while it might seem to be a surprise gotcha... the fact that she has the vial means its NOT. Unless the entire party fails the surprise save, which is extremely unlikely, it really is just meant to be a cool and scary encounter.

???
I wouldn't call it cool and scary and would call her having the potion stupid.

 

[Imaro]

It was still save or die in 4e, you just got two chances to save.

Save or die is commonly used to refer to the phenomenon of "one save failed = bad thing happens". But, I think you knew exactly what I meant so I'm not going to play semantic games... but no, 4e did away with save or die for the most part.

People are arguing that because the mythic creature did something in the legend then that is how it should be in DND. Well DND isn't particularly true to the mythic version anyway, so changing how the attack works in the rules is fair game. If having multiple saves works for the game then we should have that.

And you're using the counter argument that D&D defined the medusa outside of that mythology... but ignoring the fact that 4e in turn disgarded the established D&D mythology for the medusa and created it's own which is even further from the classic mythology...

I think what's being said (and I could be wrong) is that a few/some/many/most D&D fans liked the previously established mythology for the D&D medusa and didn't want it to further deviate from classical mythology/pop culture as was done in 4e.

Sorry, my games worked fine with the SoD medusa so I'm not sure your "works for the game" comment makes any sense. It's a purely subjective preference, which I can respect that you have... but stating it as a fact doesn't make it true.

 

[Fanaelialae]

And I just read her area of the Caves of Chaos... while it might seem to be a surprise gotcha... the fact that she has the vial means its NOT. Unless the entire party fails the surprise save, which is extremely unlikely, it really is just meant to be a cool and scary encounter.

No, that just means that because it's a gotcha encounter, a solution was contrived so that it wouldn't be seen as entirely unfair. Realistically though, it's far from impossible that most or all of the party will be stoned during the gotcha. If all of them are stoned, obviously it's a gotcha TPK. Even if not, the medusa isn't exactly a pushover. There's certainly no guarantee that they can win that fight.

It's totally a gotcha situation. The fact that a contrivance was added is, IMO, stupid. Based on the lore, she shouldn't have it because medusa prize their statues. Based on her situation she wouldn't have it because it would have likely been taken from her. IMO, it's a terribly written scenario. But moreover, it's the SoD medusa that enables this scenario to be written. A threshold medusa wouldn't.

 

[stevelabny]

You extrapolate the fluff, not reading the actual rules. It says "it", not anyone or that you get penalized on other actions.


???
I wouldn't call it cool and scary and would call her having the potion stupid.

I don't think so. the IT in that sentence is the PC, not the medusa. Replace all "creature" and "it" in that sentence with "the PC".

Which of course brings up the point again about how HORRIBLY this stuff is written.

And as for a medusa having a potion to reverse her stone to flesh stupid... I don't think it is. She can use her gaze to protect herself, but might need valuable information from her victim, or something else. Medusas are intelligent and speak Common.

PCs are capable of healing enemies they have incapacitated and often do. What would make a medusa different?

 

[stevelabny]

You extrapolate the fluff, not reading the actual rules. It says "it", not anyone or that you get penalized on other actions.


???
I wouldn't call it cool and scary and would call her having the potion stupid.

I don't think so. the IT in that sentence is the PC, not the medusa. Replace all "creature" and "it" in that sentence with "the PC".

Which of course brings up the point again about how HORRIBLY this stuff is written.

And as for a medusa having a potion to reverse her stone to flesh stupid... I don't think it is. She can use her gaze to protect herself,and to make her pretty statues, but she might need valuable information from her victim, or something else. Medusas are intelligent and speak Common.

PCs are capable of healing enemies they have incapacitated and often do. What would make a medusa different?

 

[Sadras]

What I've never seen in 4e is that type of frantic fear when facing a monster like this, instead I see players betting the averages... "Ok, well she still has two saves before she turns to stone... everyone focus fire now!!".

Exactly, 4E fixed nothing for Medusa's. If they had made those effects (slow, restrained) take effect automatically in those rounds without any saves, until the last round where the character rolled 1 save or turn to stone, it would have been much more interesting.
Might not have solved the entire problem, but it would have made the Medusa and creatures like the Beholder much more lethal and exciting.

As for the people complaining that the Medusa carries a scroll of depetrification. Its obvious, she would bring back to life those which she would want to interrogate, keep as slave after gouging out their eyes, or procreate with....use you imagination people. It makes complete sense.

 

[Kinak]

For what it's worth, like the spell-casting evil priests, the medusa is also in the original adventure, exactly like that.

She even has the potion of stone to flesh. She tries to petrify most of the PCs, then promises them the potion if they free her. In a pinch, she could probably even use it on some of them to get some guards for her way out, although that's not spelled out.

Also in the original, the snake poison was save or die. You're getting off easy

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Dykstrav]

I realize that not everyone is going to share my experiences in this regard or my opinions, and that's fine. We want different things out of the game.

One of the things that I rarely see addressed is that most of the people that don't like save-or-die effects in previous editions don't have the same complaints about it in the PC's hands. A medusa turning someone into stone with a single failed save is wrong, but a first-level PC sorcerer with sleep or color spray is fine and dandy? A wizard with disintegrate is awesome, but a beholder with a disintegrate eye ray is messed up? Nah, that pig won't fly. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I like save-or-die effects, both as a player and as a GM. In my mind, the characters should be legendary adventurers because they survived an encounter with a terrifying monster... Not survive the encounter because they're adventurers. Maybe it's a subtle distinction, but I enjoy a challenge and I fully expect some PC casualties every few sessions. I don't want the rules set to inherently provide my character with insulation from terrible things. Adventuring is dangerous. You wallow in gold and fame because you took the big risks, you survived when lesser people perish. If you don't want to risk a horrible death, maybe you're not cut out for adventuring. Most people in the world are farmers and craftsmen precisely because they don't want to have their intestines ripped out by an owlbear.

All that being said... It's my experience that many people's problems with save-or-die aren't really with the concept itself, but with ass-hat GMs that used save-or-dies to screw the PCs. A bad GM will find a way to screw you over, regardless of what the rules say. If they can't do it within the context of the rules, they'll resort to "rule zero" or something similar. The multiple saves thing feels like we're all being asked to wear kid gloves because some jerk GM in Hoboken used an encounter with thirty medusas to screw his PCs. "This is why we can't have nice things."

For my part, I'm glad that save-or-die effects are in.

 

[Walking Dad]

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And why did her jailers let her keep it, instead taking it for themselves in the case the catch their captives eyes? Also the creature is intelligent and tries to flee. What if the petrifies some and then succeeds getting away?
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