D&D 4E Forked: "Math and Grind" or "Why Rechan is Right" (From: "4e One-trick ponies")

[Scrivener of Doom]

I used Shado's character sheet design, which just has pages for powers. I arrange them by usage (eg at-will versus daily) as well as action type. Unfortunately, I don't think people are going to give up the Character Builder sheets, whether it's the DDI or offline version.

I wouldn't give them up either, necessarily, but if I was a player, I would have a nice summary sheet at the front dividing my powers up into action types and frequency.

 

[Garthanos]

I like the idea of a "Climactic Power" - and maybe one for the bad guys, too, that allows them to do something different once bloodied. (I also like that Angry DM take on solos - have them be 3 stages instead of just regular and bloodied)

Nod, (dont know if i read the AngryDM thing) but Multi-stage fights are great... having the bad guys power trigger when they are bloodied and change the environment in such a way as to reveal new usable environmental elements is fun as well.

 

[Balesir]

I used Shado's character sheet design, which just has pages for powers. I arrange them by usage (eg at-will versus daily) as well as action type. Unfortunately, I don't think people are going to give up the Character Builder sheets, whether it's the DDI or offline version.

How are folks using the CB sheets? They seem to work well for us; we print the power pages to card, cuth them up and insert in MTG card protectors (which are reusable as the characters level up). The players can arrange the cards on the table in front of them, hand me (the GM) daily/encounter powers they use and keep a skills/attributes card to hand at all times. This way we get the rules for a power being used immediately to hand (they are on the card) with all modifiers, damage etc. ready listed. As GM I keep copies of all the PC attribute/skill cards and use them as initiative count markers. Add to these the glass beads we use for surges, action points and daily item uses and most* of the bookkeeping is handled without constant marking with pen or pencil.

*: Some players have supplemental markers for specific things like heals (the 2 per combat kind). They keep these on top of the appropriate card, in front of them.

 

[pemerton]

The players can arrange the cards on the table in front of them

That would not work with my group for at least 2 reasons:

(1) Table not big and stable (food, kids, etc) enough.

(2) Even if (1) were not the case, cards would get lost/mucked up - for the character I posted upthread, for instance, we'd be talking 40-odd cards.

A summary sheet like I posted upthread has proven to be far more useful.

 

[D'karr]

A summary sheet like I posted upthread has proven to be far more useful.

I use the old CB character sheet because I've become very used to it, not because it is very user friendly. Cutting cards out of it was never something I was willing to do, as I'd have to keep doing it with every new level, or equipment buy. In addition it would also clutter the table, as was already mentioned.

When WotC redesigned the Monster Stat Blocks (I believe in MM3) they finally got it right. Each Monster's Stunts are setup in an easy to find/use, organized manner, which is separated by the type of action (Standard, Move, Minor, Triggered). That is how a summary sheet for characters should work. Unfortunately taking all that information and then rewriting it on a summary sheet is also a chore. So I've kept using the old CB character sheets.

I would be delighted if someone was able to create a conversion utility that would take CB character files and export them into Monster Statblock format.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Nod, (dont know if i read the AngryDM thing) but Multi-stage fights are great... having the bad guys power trigger when they are bloodied and change the environment in such a way as to reveal new usable environmental elements is fun as well.

I found the article - http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/

He makes some good points - a solo monster is going to be hit with 4x as many status effects as a regular monster, so is even more vulnerable to being nerfed by simple powers that Daze, Weaken, Slow, etc. Imagine a big climactic fight in your game with your tough bad guy, but every round, the PCs can Daze him, so the BBEG can't take opportunity attacks and is only limited to one action per round. With the 3 stage solo, each time it moves to a new stage, it gets to shrug off some status effects.

 

[Herschel]

Hitting more often means more damage, sure, but the biggest contributors to "grind" are:
1: Players not paying attention or not being decisive.
2. Lack of ointeresting terrain/features.

For #1, this is the biggest drag on the game ever. In combat, 4E expects you to actually pay attention at all times as there's a lot that can be going on. It even gives options for reactions and interrupts to actually have off-turn actions, but knowing what's going on and being decisive is paramount. No more rifling through teh Doritos box to find the last cool ranch and putzing with otehr stuff until your turn is announced.

For #2, when you've killed everything but the two artillery guys and you just run at them and they shoot until you catch them, that's kind of dull. If they're on perches you have to get to in a way besides just running at them it makes it a lot more interesting.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

How are folks using the CB sheets? They seem to work well for us; we print the power pages to card, cuth them up and insert in MTG card protectors (which are reusable as the characters level up). The players can arrange the cards on the table in front of them, hand me (the GM) daily/encounter powers they use and keep a skills/attributes card to hand at all times. This way we get the rules for a power being used immediately to hand (they are on the card) with all modifiers, damage etc. ready listed. As GM I keep copies of all the PC attribute/skill cards and use them as initiative count markers. Add to these the glass beads we use for surges, action points and daily item uses and most* of the bookkeeping is handled without constant marking with pen or pencil.

*: Some players have supplemental markers for specific things like heals (the 2 per combat kind). They keep these on top of the appropriate card, in front of them.

Only two players ever print their sheets, and one only does so because his laptop died and he can't afford a new one. Everyone else just has their sheets on a computer. The same thing happened in Pathfinder; people discovered there was a PF character builder, and soon enough everyone gravitated toward it. (Except me. I always use a paper character sheet.)

They are able to handle the bookkeeping, but the sheets themselves aren't arranged properly. Too many times I've seen weird things like implement powers listing your attack bonus for a weapon as well as an implement (not for a weapliment user either) which is the kind of thing that'll pause you right as you need to use a power.

They won't print cards of anything. That's a lot of paper, and needs to be reprinted every level or two.

 

[Balesir]

I would be delighted if someone was able to create a conversion utility that would take CB character files and export them into Monster Statblock format.

Well, I can help you a bit there, at least. D&D4E Combat Manager does this with character files imported from (either) CB. It also does it with monsters from Adventure Tools, for the DM's convenience, too.

Only two players ever print their sheets, and one only does so because his laptop died and he can't afford a new one. Everyone else just has their sheets on a computer. The same thing happened in Pathfinder; people discovered there was a PF character builder, and soon enough everyone gravitated toward it. (Except me. I always use a paper character sheet.)

They are able to handle the bookkeeping, but the sheets themselves aren't arranged properly. Too many times I've seen weird things like implement powers listing your attack bonus for a weapon as well as an implement (not for a weapliment user either) which is the kind of thing that'll pause you right as you need to use a power.

They won't print cards of anything. That's a lot of paper, and needs to be reprinted every level or two.

Ah, OK - for use on a PC the sheet is pretty poor, I agree. Have you tried using iPlay4e? I believe that has a good interactive sheet, usable on-line in combination with the eCB (i.e. you build the character on the CB, then use iPlay4e to view the character during play).

Re. printing, I have a colour printer in the games room, and by "hiding" cards that haven't changed we generally need only 1-2 pages printed per character per 2 level-ups (up to 20th level, which is where we are so far). I suppose if you're playing weekly the turn-around would be higher and it could become an issue.

 

[D'karr]

Well, I can help you a bit there, at least. D&D4E Combat Manager does this with character files imported from (either) CB. It also does it with monsters from Adventure Tools, for the DM's convenience, too.

Will it allow for printing them out? If so, you are my new bestest friend evar!