D&D 4E Forked: "Math and Grind" or "Why Rechan is Right" (From: "4e One-trick ponies")

[Blackbrrd]

I haven't really experienced the "foregone conclusion taking half-an-hour at table to resolve" that others are describing here.

But I agree with Quickleaf's post:
These are factors that can slow play, and are different from classic D&D (and presumably 3E, but I don't know it very well).

I've attached the combat sheet (worked up in Excel) for the invoker in my game. All the players have something similar. (The fighter player's sheet is double-sided, one for his polearm and one for his mordenkraad.)

A good idea, I have done something similar. Now, how come the character sheet in that comes out of the 4e character build isn't anything like that, but goes on for pages upon pages? I am guessing that character would use 7-10 pages from the character builder? No wonder 4e combat feels grindy, people take forever to find their powers and go through all their options.

(Btw, why haven't you color-coded the sheet? For instance green for at-will, red for encounter, blue for daily?)

 

[pemerton]

Now, how come the character sheet in that comes out of the 4e character build isn't anything like that, but goes on for pages upon pages? I am guessing that character would use 7-10 pages from the character builder? No wonder 4e combat feels grindy, people take forever to find their powers and go through all their options.

Agreed that DDI produces bad sheets.

Btw, why haven't you color-coded the sheet? For instance green for at-will, red for encounter, blue for daily?

Because I don't have access to a colour printer.

 

[Garthanos]

I never noticed that the amount of choice was a problem. For the most part, I also highly enjoyed immediate actions and interrupts. I liked that there were times when I could actually respond to what was going on around me. It was the closest I've ever been to having active defenses instead of passive ones in D&D, so that was great for me.

Pepes taking orderly turns particularly for movement I find ummm what is the catch phrase for contrary to the way things actually work and interferes with my having an immersive experience? used to be unrealistic, then gamey, is lacking versimilitude now?

I mean the action is all simultaneous and not having the those immediate actions and interupts... is just plain contrary

 

[Argyle King]

Pepes taking orderly turns particularly for movement I find ummm what is the catch phrase for contrary to the way things actually work and interferes with my having an immersive experience? used to be unrealistic, then gamey, is lacking versimilitude now?

I mean the action is all simultaneous and not having the those immediate actions and interupts... is just plain contrary

Might be...

I was just saying that I vastly prefer games in which I can attempt to dodge, parry, etc as opposed to the D&D model where it feels as though I'm just sorta standing there and getting hit. In the fiction, that may not be what is going on, but it often feels that way. I found the immediate actions to be helpful in that there seemed to be more give and take; a more fluid flow of action throughout the various turns.

 

[Garthanos]

Might be...

I was just saying that I vastly prefer games in which I can attempt to dodge, parry, etc as opposed to the D&D model where it feels as though I'm just sorta standing there and getting hit. In the fiction, that may not be what is going on, but it often feels that way. I found the immediate actions to be helpful in that there seemed to be more give and take; a more fluid flow of action throughout the various turns.

Right they are related, PC Defenses being passive can be changed with a players make all the rolls technique I borrowed from an earlier Unearthed arcana. One of the play test packets had a parry mechanic for the fighter which allowed him to roll a parry (dicey damage resistance in response to being hit by an attack ... it was very nice in this category during that same one you could also block for an adjacent ally when they were hit. (you were using up some resource in order to do so).

 

[Garthanos]

There's something to note here - as a generalization, humans aren't actually very good at estimating risks, especially under duress. People often make sub-optimal choices in stressful situations, because they don't have time or inclination to do careful analysis.

The kobold, occasionally, should react with his gut, not with a full benefit/risk analysis by the rules. And if his gut is full of the fear of death...

People used to laugh at morale rules, but here's the reason to have such - to remind the GM that morale matters.

I have a standard rule if half the enemy is down or a given enemy is bloodied they start looking for escape unless they are zombies or fanatics... hit points are your morale. Additionally players spending an action to intimidate has it built in... not thinking I really need anything extra. I have bloodiable minions rules to bring this home as well.

 

[Garthanos]

I do agree with Rechan's definition of a grind.

On the player's side, there are two things I think you can do to reduce grind.

First, take encounter-defining powers, particularly daily ones, and then actually use them. Certain daily powers are such a big deal that they color everything else that happens that fight. Use them. They tend to be things like Wall of Fire, which can totally reshape the battlefield, or Wrath of the Gods, which can turn a brutal back-and-forth melee into a slaughterfest. With something like Wall of Fire, a fight that might have been boring can become much more interesting, because suddenly powers that push, pull or slide enemies can not only reposition them, but also reposition them into a raging inferno. A power like Wrath of the Gods, by contrast, can increase damage so greatly that a long fight becomes a short one.

Second, take encounter and daily powers that are useful at different points in the arc of a combat. If your attacks in a fight boil down to, "encounter power, encounter power, encounter power, at will, at will, at will, at will, at will," you'll probably feel that a grind occurred. But if your encounter powers are more than "hit for extra damage," if they have tactical relevance and need to be properly timed, you'll probably have something more like "at will, encounter, at will, at will, encounter, at will, encounter, at will." Which will feel like much less of a grind because you spent some rounds not only using an at will power, but also anticipating the use of an encounter power and planning and timing it properly. My fighter uses Bell Ringer, Crushing Blow, and Probing Attack. Bell Ringer is best when used to set up the whole party to beat down a dazed monster, or to grant attack bonuses versus an enemy who can't be flanked at the moment. Crushing Blow is a generic big hit, best used when your attack bonus is at its best, and Probing Attack is best used to set up other attacks. This isn't even a particularly extreme example, but it does show how each encounter power is useful at different moments of the battle.

I have a liking for powers that work better when you are desparate.. or bloodied. I am thinking it might be cool to have some you pull out only when your healing surges are below half and your dailies are spent or something similar. I would actually like these to in effect to replace those dailies. When people started saying decrease monster hit points I thought huh? thats not exciting having some powers perhaps wilder more extreme ones that kick in later in the fight .. now thats more exciting. WOTCs devs seem to come up with bland solutions.

I love Climactic Powers but dailies seem designed to be used at the beginning of a fight.. and that isnt very climactic.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

4E could benefit from a fresh style of character sheet much closer to the post-MMIII or so stat block.

In short, powers need to be called out by action and by frequency because, yes, players have a lot of choices.

I used Shado's character sheet design, which just has pages for powers. I arrange them by usage (eg at-will versus daily) as well as action type. Unfortunately, I don't think people are going to give up the Character Builder sheets, whether it's the DDI or offline version.

 

[NewJeffCT]

The problem comes when everyone's done their thing, used their encounter powers... and the fight's only half over. Certainly monster HP can contribute, but it's more symptomatic than a true cause of grind.

More over, when an hour into a two hour battle, it's obvious the PCs are going to win, but the monsters just aren't dead yet, and the monsters have nothing left that's interesting. For instance, the PCs killed all the monsters except for two artillery monsters, who are still at full health; even if everyone did max damage on every attack, that's still a waste of time because it's shooting fish in a barrel. Add in a miss here and there, and it goes forever.

This is exactly how I felt when DMing 4E. I was happy that it was extremely easy to prepare compared to 3e/3.5e/PF. And, combats for my group took less time than 3.5e combats. However, after the main bad guy (the solo or elite) blew their big power or two in 4e, and their action point(s) in rounds 1 and 2 (and maybe round 3), they'd be stuck hoping for a recharge or doing the same bloody at-will power over and over and over until the combat was over. It was friggin' boring.

If I ran an evil lich in 3.5e that was a level 15 wizard, I would have at least one or two level 8 spells to fire off (assuming a specialized wizard), then 2-3 level 7 spells and 3-4 level 6 spells, and you're already at 9 rounds worth of spells, not to mention maybe a quickened magic missile (level 5 slot) or quickened touch of idiocy (level 6 slot) or similar, as well as magic items, scrolls, potions, triggered items, etc. And, after those 9 rounds of combat, if the lich is still standing, you still have an arsenal of level 3, 4 and 5 spells left if any PCs are still standing.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I have a liking for powers that work better when you are desparate.. or bloodied. I am thinking it might be cool to have some you pull out only when your healing surges are below half and your dailies are spent or something similar. I would actually like these to in effect to replace those dailies. When people started saying decrease monster hit points I thought huh? thats not exciting having some powers perhaps wilder more extreme ones that kick in later in the fight .. now thats more exciting. WOTCs devs seem to come up with bland solutions.

I love Climactic Powers but dailies seem designed to be used at the beginning of a fight.. and that isnt very climactic.

I like the idea of a "Climactic Power" - and maybe one for the bad guys, too, that allows them to do something different once bloodied. (I also like that Angry DM take on solos - have them be 3 stages instead of just regular and bloodied)