D&D 4E Forked: "Math and Grind" or "Why Rechan is Right" (From: "4e One-trick ponies")

[Rechan]

You can definitely produce grind-y encounters in 3e, usually by messing around with monster advancement guidelines and/or templates. Monsters with a lot of hp or absurd defenses (which high-level monsters require, to an extent, to survive more than a round) can produce battles where the players' attacks are largely ineffective. Either because they miss a lot, or because they can't put a big enough dent in the HP total.

Y'mean like having resistances/immunities like ravers have glowsticks, or Spell Resistance/Big Fat Saves?

 

[Cadfan]

One of the tricks to keep rogues exciting, in my opinion, is shuriken.

Sometimes you won't have combat advantage against the opponent you've been fighting. But someone else on the battlefield will have dazed or otherwise inconvenienced their enemy. When that happens, shift back a space and throw a shuriken. Its different, it creates variety, and if you use Deft Strike you can simultaneously reposition yourself.

 

[Rel]

But if your encounter powers are more than "hit for extra damage," if they have tactical relevance and need to be properly timed, you'll probably have something more like "at will, encounter, at will, at will, encounter, at will, encounter, at will." Which will feel like much less of a grind because you spent some rounds not only using an at will power, but also anticipating the use of an encounter power and planning and timing it properly.

I think this is an excellent point and I hope to take it a step further. By mixing in terrain features in the combat environment and having a house rule that allows an Action Point to be used to "stunt" with, I'm hoping that I end up with combats that look like "encounter, at will, at will, skill roll, at will, power stunt, encounter, encounter".

I'll also point out something that gets mentioned in a lot of the threads about "grind", which is that many foes shouldn't be fighting to the death. If those last two Kobolds are artillery then they should either be running to get more Kobolds or surrendering. Either of those will end the fight early (although the former might start a new fight before they've been able to Short Rest, which could exacerbate your grind problem).

P.S. To the OP: We're having the next ENWorld NC Game Day this weekend. Let me know if you need the address and want to attend. It's right up the road from you in Raleigh.

 

[Rechan]

I'll also point out something that gets mentioned in a lot of the threads about "grind", which is that many foes shouldn't be fighting to the death. If those last two Kobolds are artillery then they should either be running to get more Kobolds or surrendering. Either of those will end the fight early (although the former might start a new fight before they've been able to Short Rest, which could exacerbate your grind problem).

The one problem there are circumstances where there's no way for the monster to flee, and surrender = death anyway. If the monster has no extra means of escape (flight, teleport, invisibility), and it's kinda crowded, well it's likely not going to get out of there. The latter point comes from if the monster is something like a Devil/Demon, Undead, or anything that 1) is unquestionably evil and 2) knows the PCs know this. I don't know many PCs that would let a fiend go free. In that circumstance, better to try and take the punks with you. And if it's an unintelligent undead (Skeleton, zombie), it's likely going to fight to the death anyhow.

In addition, the post that sparked this whole mess, the complaint was that the DM has to use DM Fiat to prevent grind, and the OP's point is that a DM shouldn't just be responsible for dealing with grind, either players should, or the system should.

If you're okay with addressing Grind by DM Fiat, there are other options than Surrender/Flee. You can:

1) End the fight via Hand Wave, at the cost of some healing surges. "And you battle it for a few more heart-pounding seconds, but it gets its licks in before it goes down. Gimmie a healing surge and we'll call it there."
2) Treat the monster like a minion. The next hit kills it, regardless of HP total.
3) And Then Something Happened. Something that either causes the fight to end ("The ceiling collapses, blocking you from the monster"), or otherwise changes the face of the fight ("The room is now bathed in fire. Now fight this guy while the fire surrounds you"). This could even be the infusion of a new objective: "A friendly/innocent NPC stumbles in, and the monster grabs them/starts shooting at them instead, protect the NPC!"

 

[Rel]

The one problem there are circumstances where there's no way for the monster to flee, and surrender = death anyway. If the monster has no extra means of escape (flight, teleport, invisibility), and it's kinda crowded, well it's likely not going to get out of there.

In some ways this almost makes it better. I mean, if that Kobold has to run past three characters who all get Opportunity Attacks as it tries to escape then maybe those extra attacks knock down its HP to the point that one more hit will take it out. And this isn't even all that stupid from the Kobold's standpoint. If he stands and fights then he is sure to die. If he runs through the crowd he might get lucky and they miss him.

The latter point comes from if the monster is something like a Devil/Demon, Undead, or anything that 1) is unquestionably evil and 2) knows the PCs know this. I don't know many PCs that would let a fiend go free. In that circumstance, better to try and take the punks with you.

Very true but if I'm this diabolical evil critter then I'm not above lying either. So I might offer surrender and try to convince the PC's that I have critical information that they need. Some of those devils have pretty good Bluff skills. Who knows, maybe the horse will sing...

I do take your point about the origins of this thread though so perhaps I'm dragging it off topic.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Honestly? I rarely sat in a 3e battle that wasn't at least somewhat grindy. If for no other reason than it could take 90 minutes to resolve 3 rounds of combat.

The analysis paralysis fandango usually performed by higher level spellcasters and the rules queries that followed were something different though, than the grind situation in 4E. And at lower levels (that 5th to 9th sweetspot), I think 3.x was actually pretty sharp, even with just a basic array of attack forms. Why then the grind if not for the lack of gravy?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hazard_53188]

In some ways this almost makes it better. I mean, if that Kobold has to run past three characters who all get Opportunity Attacks as it tries to escape then maybe those extra attacks knock down its HP to the point that one more hit will take it out. And this isn't even all that stupid from the Kobold's standpoint. If he stands and fights then he is sure to die. If he runs through the crowd he might get lucky and they miss him.

I agree. I find that when the enemies break it renews my players excitement in the battle and the more opportunity attacks given the move that excitement increases. The enemies breaking quickens the pace of the game as the PCs try to quickly knock down the fleeing foes who are desperately trying to escape by taking chances. Fights to the death should be rare.

 

[Nymrohd]

I rarely get a feeling of grind in my games. Part of it is because of a houserule that encourages my players to use dailies (they get to recharge a daily attack power every milestone). Mostly it is because the players are tactically savvy. Some basic tricks they use often:

1)Never use a limited resource without a tactical advantage unless it is reliable. In a two-leader group with a battlepriest and a tactical warlord, players often request (in game, while roleplaying) some form of attack bonus before using a limited resource. This is the big reason why the relation between accuracy and average damage is complex: a miss by a daily is far more problematic than one by an at-will. However a miss by a daily only seems to happen rarely if you pay attention.

2) Make sure you have attacks available against different defenses. Get your hands on a foestone ASAP. Knowing where you can hit a monster hard and being able to hit there is critically important. Some classes admittedly have mainly AC/Reflex to hit, but there is often some Will or Fort attack hidden somewhere as well. Find it.

3) When a monster is about to get bloodied, ready actions to gang it! Bloodied Elites usually get very dangerous. Some can heal, others just do more damage than your defender's healing surge value. When a monster gets angry, kill it fast. 3+ Dailies hitting (especially if two are from strikers) can kill most bloodied elites.

As a DM I do the following to decrease the feeling of grind.

1) You don't need Intimidate to intimidate. If the players bring the wrath of gods upon the mobs, the remaining minions may start running for it, the normals are likely to try to run for help, and the elites are likely to do the best they can to make sure the runner makes it. In most cases the PCs will not allow the runner to pass ofc, but the couple of runs of would-be grind that become a frantic chase are an improvement.. If all else fails some monsters may surrender and offer information in return for their lives.

2) 4E does not have to copy the bad features of WoW. The boss monster that waits for your players in the end of his lair and is hardly seen before is boring!. Especially a solo can feature in multiple encounters. His limited healing surges mean that if the players give chase, they may be depleted when they get to the final fight, but the solo will also be near bloodied or worse as well.

Now I could say more but I have to grab a cab Bottomline is, grind, on most game systems is far more likely a result of bad gaming than a problem of the system.

 

[Umbran]

I understand what you are saying here. However, let's go back a few years to 3.x and a similar situation. I can't remember this "grind" facet being overly mentioned. What is happening in 4E?

Here's where I wind up partially disagreeing with Rechan - I think the length of the combat in player-time, and the number of rounds you have to go through, greatly contributes to the sensation of "grind". So, the monster hit points (or AC/Hit point combination, depending how you want to approach the math) is an issue.

In 3e, you didn't have a whole lot to do but "attack", true. But, in my experience, it sure seemed like you needed fewer of those basic attacks to get you through the fight. Often enough, the fight didn't last long enough for the boredom to set in.

Perhaps the system could use some more guidelines on ad hoc maneuvers - things the PCs can do to influence how the fight turns out without use of powers.

 

[Umbran]

In some ways this almost makes it better. I mean, if that Kobold has to run past three characters who all get Opportunity Attacks as it tries to escape then maybe those extra attacks knock down its HP to the point that one more hit will take it out. And this isn't even all that stupid from the Kobold's standpoint. If he stands and fights then he is sure to die. If he runs through the crowd he might get lucky and they miss him.

There's something to note here - as a generalization, humans aren't actually very good at estimating risks, especially under duress. People often make sub-optimal choices in stressful situations, because they don't have time or inclination to do careful analysis.

The kobold, occasionally, should react with his gut, not with a full benefit/risk analysis by the rules. And if his gut is full of the fear of death...

People used to laugh at morale rules, but here's the reason to have such - to remind the GM that morale matters.