D&D 4E Forked: "Math and Grind" or "Why Rechan is Right" (From: "4e One-trick ponies")

[Herremann the Wise]

The problem is: the fight gets boring. The fight is boring because there's nothing left to change things up, make the fight interesting. Powers make the fight interesting. Monster abilities make the fight interesting. Terrain make the fight interesting.

I understand what you are saying here. However, let's go back a few years to 3.x and a similar situation. I can't remember this "grind" facet being overly mentioned. What is happening in 4E? Are we getting so used to gravy (encounter powers) with our meat (at wills) that if we go back to just meat (like in 3.x), the meal's not as nice? Or is there something else at play here mechanics-wise?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Rechan]

It occurs to me though that I was wrong. Hitting = more damage = faster.

The sticking point I had was just arguing averages, and how much of an impact just a +1 or +2 would have on everything. As Plane Sailing pointed out, those bonuses are rather insignificant unless they're continually applied over a long time, given that's how averages are computed.

A large contributing factor to Grind, IMHO, is a lot of misses. Just like a fight can be solved rather quickly with a few crits, a few 1s really make things crawl. Because that's wasted time deciding and rolling, and a wasted action of the character.

Even if it takes more hits to bring the monster down, hitting at least gives the illusion of less grind for a while, because the rolling of damage feels like you're getting closer. A miss feels like you're taking longer.

Because ultimately Grind is not a matter of numbers. It's a matter of interest. A fight can last 4 hours, but if the whole time it feels fun, then it doesn't feel like a grind. Grind happens when everyone is ready to move on, and there's no end in sight.

 

[Rechan]

I understand what you are saying here. However, let's go back a few years to 3.x and a similar situation. I can't remember this "grind" facet being overly mentioned.

Honestly? I rarely sat in a 3e battle that wasn't at least somewhat grindy. If for no other reason than it could take 90 minutes to resolve 3 rounds of combat.

 

[Cadfan]

I do agree with Rechan's definition of a grind.

On the player's side, there are two things I think you can do to reduce grind.

First, take encounter-defining powers, particularly daily ones, and then actually use them. Certain daily powers are such a big deal that they color everything else that happens that fight. Use them. They tend to be things like Wall of Fire, which can totally reshape the battlefield, or Wrath of the Gods, which can turn a brutal back-and-forth melee into a slaughterfest. With something like Wall of Fire, a fight that might have been boring can become much more interesting, because suddenly powers that push, pull or slide enemies can not only reposition them, but also reposition them into a raging inferno. A power like Wrath of the Gods, by contrast, can increase damage so greatly that a long fight becomes a short one.

Second, take encounter and daily powers that are useful at different points in the arc of a combat. If your attacks in a fight boil down to, "encounter power, encounter power, encounter power, at will, at will, at will, at will, at will," you'll probably feel that a grind occurred. But if your encounter powers are more than "hit for extra damage," if they have tactical relevance and need to be properly timed, you'll probably have something more like "at will, encounter, at will, at will, encounter, at will, encounter, at will." Which will feel like much less of a grind because you spent some rounds not only using an at will power, but also anticipating the use of an encounter power and planning and timing it properly. My fighter uses Bell Ringer, Crushing Blow, and Probing Attack. Bell Ringer is best when used to set up the whole party to beat down a dazed monster, or to grant attack bonuses versus an enemy who can't be flanked at the moment. Crushing Blow is a generic big hit, best used when your attack bonus is at its best, and Probing Attack is best used to set up other attacks. This isn't even a particularly extreme example, but it does show how each encounter power is useful at different moments of the battle.

 

[Dausuul]

Honestly? I rarely sat in a 3e battle that wasn't at least somewhat grindy. If for no other reason than it could take 90 minutes to resolve 3 rounds of combat.

One wouldn't normally call that "grind," though. To me, at least, "grind" means you are laboriously grinding something away bit by bit, typically monster hit points. 3E didn't have a lot of grind going on, but it did have plenty of slog on occasion.

 

[FireLance]

Well, I did have enough computing skills to do up the probability distribution of when the fight will end for an Str 18 1st-level fighter using a greatsword and reaping strike against a dire rat (AC 15, 38 hp), and the same fighter with Str 16, just to illustrate the difference that a +1 to hit and damage (and +1 damage on a miss) could have over a single one-on-one fight (Str 18 Ftr / Str 16 Ftr):

R1 0.00% / 0.00%
R2 0.00% / 0.00%
R3 2.17% / 0.35%
R4 22.01% / 8.78%
R5 38.38% / 24.05%
R6 26.11% / 29.70%
R7 9.35% / 21.63%
R8 1.80% / 10.62%
R9 0.19% / 3.74%
R10 0.01% / 0.95%
R11 0.00% / 0.17%
R12 0.00% / 0.02%
R13 0.00% / 0.00%​

As can be seen from the probability distribution, the +1 to hit and damage in this case would end the fight about one round sooner. The mean of the probability distributions for the Str 18 Ftr and the Str 16 Ftr are 5.25 and 6.16 respectively.

 

[Rechan]

Second, take encounter and daily powers that are useful at different points in the arc of a combat. If your attacks in a fight boil down to, "encounter power, encounter power, encounter power, at will, at will, at will, at will, at will," you'll probably feel that a grind occurred. But if your encounter powers are more than "hit for extra damage," if they have tactical relevance and need to be properly timed, you'll probably have something more like "at will, encounter, at will, at will, encounter, at will, encounter, at will."

Yes, indeed.

I'm playing a 7th level Bard, and it's similar. One power lets me do damage, and move an enemy 2 squares, to let an ally get a free attack with a +4. I've used that to unseat an enemy off his mount, pull a bad monster out of a choke point, and drag a monster into a trap that teleported it away from the wizard he was stabbing. Another power lets me make an ally invisible to a single monster, and that is generally the "Save the low HP guy's bacon" power. A third grants an ally a saving throw when I hit.

These all require waiting for the optimal time to fire.

I'm trying to build a rogue right now, and as I read, I've noticed the rogue's various powers feel similar. Bait and Switch feels like it's something you should use when you can toss the enemy into the middle of your friends' huddle, or when you need to make a break for it. If you have no strategy, Positioning Strike is useless. Dazzing Strike and Topple Over has the same tactical significance as Bell Ringer. Sly Lunge is another that is best used with some setup - if you have a Warlord Ally who can Commander's Strike you, you can opt to use your Sneak Attack damage on the free Basic, while you do an extra 1[W] with Sly Lunge. Compared to all this, Torturous Strike has no finesse to it.

That of course doesn't suit all players. I think that it would better serve one to pick a mix of powers, just so that you have those raw function powers too.

THe powers I feel that are problematic are the "Do your thing, and get a bonus to AC or some other fiddly effect until the end of your next turn". That thing goes away real fast, and the chancse that it'll make a visible effect are limited. Also, powers that are Immediate actions; they: 1) Require the circumstances to occur, and it may not in the length of the battle, and 2) Happen outside of the player's turn, so whlie the player is waiting for it to happen, he has to use an At-Will. Those, to me, are annoying.

 

[Spatula]

You can definitely produce grind-y encounters in 3e, usually by messing around with monster advancement guidelines and/or templates. Monsters with a lot of hp or absurd defenses (which high-level monsters require, to an extent, to survive more than a round) can produce battles where the players' attacks are largely ineffective. Either because they miss a lot, or because they can't put a big enough dent in the HP total.

I ran an otherwise pretty good 18th? level adventure from the WotC site (Thunder Below, I think it was called) that featured two custom chimeras made with the Savage Species template (which allows you to sub in different beasts for the creatures making up the chimera) and advanced to be a decent CR. The players didn't have any good way to hurt them - the two melee types couldn't fly, and the creature's sky-high HP and saves meant the casters could only chip away at them very slowly. At the same time they couldn't do much to the players. Eventually I just had them fly off.

 

[Cadfan]

THe powers I feel that are problematic are the "Do your thing, and get a bonus to AC or some other fiddly effect until the end of your next turn". That thing goes away real fast, and the chancse that it'll make a visible effect are limited.

Agreed. This is one of the reasons I don't like most striker daily powers- they tend to boil down to "do even more damage than the usual high damage you deal, and maybe get some trivial bonus effect." A lot of them are really just encounter powers hopped up on equine steroids. Which has its place, I suppose, but I usually feel that you get more mileage out of a stance or ongoing effect.

Also, powers that are Immediate actions; they: 1) Require the circumstances to occur, and it may not in the length of the battle, and 2) Happen outside of the player's turn, so whlie the player is waiting for it to happen, he has to use an At-Will. Those, to me, are annoying.

I actually like these, because they stop me from hording. When the trigger happens, I use the power. I do try to avoid taking powers with obscure or redundant triggers, though. Some are really bad. Like a Fighter power that is usable as an immediate interrupt when an adjacent enemy attacks an ally. Combat Challenge already does that. And while acting out of turn does mean that I'll spend more actual turns using at will powers, I'm doing more things, and that reduces boredom.

 

[Rechan]

Agreed. This is one of the reasons I don't like most striker daily powers- they tend to boil down to "do even more damage than the usual high damage you deal, and maybe get some trivial bonus effect." A lot of them are really just encounter powers hopped up on equine steroids. Which has its place, I suppose, but I usually feel that you get more mileage out of a stance or ongoing effect.

Indeed. I'm looking at the rogue powers and they're just - move and attack, or attack in a burst/knock them down, or you slow the target, or something. Yawn.

Ranger ones are worse, because they're essentially Uber Twinstrike (but then, several of the Encounter powers are just Super Twinstrike).