[sblock=Mercurius' Posts]
I've been hearing quite an outcry about the cost of D&D 5E which, if we count the three core rulebooks, turns out to be $150 list price (although, more realistically, it will end up costing somewhere in the vicinity of $100-120 on Amazon). Let's take a look at that.
When I looked at the listing I priced it at 170 bucks (Canadian) which is already more than I think I spent during my whole 3e days and probably as much as I've spent total on my Pathfinder books. I spent around 100 fore the core 3 for 3.5 and I also bought a new copy of Deities and Demigods and a used (best I could do) copy of Manual of the Planes.. though those may have been reversed, I always forget. All together, at full price (or very near it) mind you, I would have spent in the area of 170 Canadian for those 5 books. On top of that, the page count is much higher than I saw in that one image of the 5e books. Plus a SRD for free.
Beyond that, yes, I do plan on breaking down everything you said point by point.
First of all, $150 is about how much money one might spend taking their partner out to dinner or a show, and a few drinks. One night's entertainment. I don't play video games but don't they cost about $50 a piece? That's three video games. $150 is also about three months of a smartphone or a month of Comcast Triple Play. Or it is about 7-8 times at the movie - a ticket, popcorn, and a soda.
Already said. But yes, that is a fine list of expensive things. Good job. On top of that, those are all the high-watermark of those items. Not the low-low-intro price and you can CERTAINLY go cheaper for something more basic. I don't think WotC should price themselves to START at a higher end luxury excursion, or to be compared to such things. So, even excluding that you are talking about a bunch of things I can't buy/wouldn't buy, I think that WotC would want to make it cheaper to try and sell more books. But I recognize that there is a supply/demand curve that they are probably judging it against and so I'm not going to try and think for them. I just find it to be moronic to price yourself so high that people try to justify that high price tag by comparing other equally expensive things because they can't compare them to other similarly priced cheaper things. If the price went up to 1000s of dollars I'm sure that the example would become "$5 000, that's about how much money one might spend buying a used car, and getting the repairs for said used car." That seems totally reasonable...
not. If you had said, "50 bucks, that's how much you (and your partner?) might spend at McDonald's"
(And no, I don't know or care how accurate my figures are, for the McD's nor the car.) Then we could be talking. That is a reasonably low-cost comparison. Doesn't help me when comparing it to other things a upper-middle class person wouldn't give a crap about, I'm not in that class. Neither are most teenagers - at one time WotC's target demographic, IIRC.
OK, so now that we've seen that $150 for hundreds if not thousands of entertainment is good value, let's compare it to other RPGs. We should start with Pathfinder, because it is the most comparable game.
Indeed, let's start there. But let's also add one more little thing and remember that
Pathfinder is sold right now not only 5 years ago.
So what is Pathfinder's equivalent to the Holy Trinity? Well it is hard to say.
Wait. Hold on. No it isn't hard to say. It is the Core Rulebook and Bestiary 1. 2 Books. Moving on..
On one hand, the core rulebook is enough to play - but I would say that it includes just about eveything the PHB will have (as far as we can tell), plus a good chunk of the DMG. But it doesn't have a chunk of what the DMG will (allegedly) include--which seems more along the lines of the Gamemastery Guide--nor does it have the monsters. So to get the full span of the Holy Trinity in Pathfinder, you have to buy the core rulebook ($50), the Gamemastery Guide ($40) and at least one Bestiary ($40) - which is $130. Factor in a bit of five-year inflation (the core rulebook and Bestiary came out in 2009, and the GG in 2010), and we're talking more like $140-145.
So, no you don't have to buy the Core, GMG and Bestiary. You only need 2 books for this holy trinity. I'm saying this because I can't compare apples to theoretical pomegranates that haven't been released yet (and won't be for another 6 months). So, 2 books and 90 bucks, nearly HALF of what I'm paying (170) for 5e - and with less content AND without the PFSRD. Still a fair sight better than the 150 that others are paying too.
OK, so the total package is similar in cost.
But to be fair, Pathfinder offers a more complete core rulebook - at least as far as we can tell. We can only assume tha the PHB will not include any rules for DMing or magic items, although we don't know for sure. So with Pathfinder you can get away with just having the core book and the Bestiary, which is $90, or inflated to $100 - the same amount as the 5E PHB and MM. But again, it remains to be seen if the game is complete without the DMG, or how complete. Either way, the difference between the two--if any--isn't that much to inspire too much nerdrage (and if it does, I'm guessing that it is really transferred from some other object of rage).
Again, can't compare it to something that doesn't exist. But I'm going to use the old accountant's axiom and assume that Pathfinder will still be sold as a brand when 5e is released. AS SUCH, the price will STILL BE 90 vs 150.
I don't understand this need to do inflation numbers. When others (not searching for it at the moment, I have too much open to bother checking) wrote up the numbers they were counting 1e and 2e and then 3e, PF and 4e. Pathfinder is still in print. 4e is too, more or less. You can't really do the inflation on those. So when comparing like things it is a LOT more expensive than a product that it is comparable that exists today.
Now other RPGs have much lower start-up costs, although of course you're usually getting much less material to play with as well. But this isn't new for D&D, nor is it any different than Pathfinder - so if you're pissed off with WotC then you should be pissed off with Paizo, and if you're pissed off with both then maybe another game is in order.
What? Why? Pathfinder has a much lower start-up cost (90 vs 150), therefore get pissed at Paizo too?
So there we have it. Is 5E over-priced? Not really - not for what you're getting in terms of entertainment value, nor in relation to other RPGs. It is probably on the upper end of cost - maybe even the most expensive (although let's not talk about miniature wargaming) - but this is simply how the market works; Rolex gets to inflate the prices of their watches not only because they're great timepieces (they are) but because they're Rolex, and D&D is the Rolex of the RPG world.
So there you have it. YES 5e is over priced. By a fair margin, based on the only metric you really gave in this post. It is ABOVE the upper end in cost, since even when you were tossing in the GMG (an unnecessary addition) it still came to 130 vs. 150. It is not at the upper end. It floats above it.
So let it go and move on...and enjoy the excitement of a new edition coming out!
When this is the first real bit we see of 5e as "Dungeons and Dragons" without the "Next" then I think it is a fair sign to be worried. If someone goes into a gamestore and there are signs up saying "5e on its way" or whatever they'll say, and then ask the guy behind the counter how much and he replies "150 bucks for the first three books." That is something I would worry about when he might add, "Oh but this other game that IS out costs minimum 20 dollars less, and you get an entire EXTRA BOOK OF CONTENT and the SRD." Then I'm more likely to buy that product. It is just not a nice thing. I never thank someone who is reaching into my wallet and robbing me blind, even if someone else down the street is going to do the same damn thing. Instead I'll be even more annoyed that he also likes to kick me when the others just take my money.
Evidently you miss my point. Sure, it is expensive - but no more than other forms of entertainment, and in the end you get a lot more value than you do from other forms of entertainment that many don't balk at spending money on.
It IS more expensive. I can go to the movies without a huge bag of popcorn, without a drink, without dinner. I can even rent that movie via another format for a much cheaper price as well. With 5e there is no low-price setting. It only comes in "expensive entertainment" which means that I'm not going to buy it, my friends who are already moved onto PF aren't going to buy it, even my cousin who is young, suggestible and even played 4e before trying 3.5 (undecided on which and certainly hasn't bought into PF) isn't going to buy it given its price. Again, I have no data to show who will and who won't, and at what price, but it seems like that is a fair number of groups that may have if the price was comparable to their current product. Who now won't when it is at the HIGH END of the hobby.
Imagine playing Warhammer, but one specific army was twice as expensive for the exact same type of troops (I'm not talking special ones). Imagine playing an xbox, but one brand of manufacturer of games charged twice what the other did - for a similar game. Lego Lord of the Rings being 50 bucks, but Lego Batman and Robin being 100. You aren't
more likely to buy that product. Now, it may end up being that Lego Batman and Robin is FAR superior, but as of right now no one can actually tell if it is going to be - or if it is going to be for most/many people. I'm so glad I didn't go into economics or marketing.
My practical recommendation is that you pitch in and buy communal books. You, as DM, take home the DMG and MM, while the PHB rotates among the players. Depending upon what it ends up costing on Amazon, that's $25-30 a person.
I'm glad you have a system that you and yours do. I don't have that luxury. My original group fractured when we moved on from university. Even in the days when we played together we hated sharing books and it was an unwritten rule that every newbie should secure their own access to the books - at least the core 3. That meant that virtually everyone I played with owned the 3 core books. I certainly had to buy my own. Until I moved in with a bunch of other gamers I wouldn't have had regular enough access to be able to borrow them for every game. So, yeah, it gets pricy when everyone has to shill out 170 bucks to play the game together. But maybe this policy will encourage us to be thriftier. Kind of like how wailing on a kid every day at school will turn him into a better fighter, or at least better at taking a punch. Maybe that's what WotC is thinking, I don't know.
But from what you say here and in the other thread, WotC didn't as much "price you out" as you are simply in a place of tight finances that doesn't enable any frivolous spending. I mean, if the books were $40 each would it make a difference? Consider also the market and context - it sounds to me that your issue is less with WotC and their pricing and more with the national economic climate and your own situation. Again, $50 a book sounds like a lot - and it is - but it isn't so out of whack with inflation, the market, etc.
I'm not the person you were replying to and thus not the "you" you are talking to here. But WotC definitely priced me out, and yes I have a hell of a tight budget. I was diagnosed with cancer about a year ago, got it removed along with my whole lung and thus far can't work. I make less than 500 a year and was unemployed (couldn't find a job in this recent economic downturn) for a couple of years prior. Now, that said, I still manage to be gifted games and things from time to time. During that same stretch I managed to accrue almost all of my Pathfinder books (Core, B1+2, GMG, APG, I feel like I'm forgetting another but I'm not near my books at present). And so there is a chance for me to get a product that I know is worth my time. But so far there is nothing saying 5e will be. And honestly among my friends, I'm the one MOST likely to try 5e and then recommend it. So, it is a decent chance that 5e won't catch on with me and mine, and most of that will be due to the price.
Let me ask you another question: How much do you think D&D should cost to play? Consider the market, how much other RPGs and entertainments cost, the ever-increasing cost of publishing, etc. What is a fair price, in your mind, based upon the market?
I don't know or care about the market. Heck, I think those movies and video games that you listed before cost WAY too much too. I see MAYBE 4-5 movies a year (if it is an excellent year) and I always forgo the popcorn. But in that case I would expect the books to cost about what they did in my 3.5 days when I first started investing in the hobby. Lest you forget this is the third time they want me to buy the same game in less than 10 years. I'm thinking if it is only going to be that short between editions in a hobby with a cycle that seems to last decades that they can keep the price fairly consistent, or at least competitive.
Another question: If they release an SRD, and thus make the game playable for free, will you feel OK about the pricing?
That would certainly help. Then again it is one of several decisions that I know people have been waiting to hear about, a variation on the OGL being another. Those are things that help people out. Like discounts at a place you go to regularly. Those minor discounts (by themselves) aren't likely to get people to change, but it certainly makes the ones who do happier. I think companies call them loyalty programs. I'm not feeling that kind of love from WotC and haven't in a long time.
Now I can agree that $50 is a bit more than they should be; the 4E hardcovers were $35, which through inflation is more like $39 today. Let's say the costs of publication have gone up a bit and that the 5E books will have even higher production value - $40-45 would make good sense.
Setting aside that dreaded inflation that you seem to love to throw in, the 4e books cost 35 bucks and the 5e books 50. You don't think 15 more than enough "inflation?" I'd be pissed if I got a burger one year for 3.5 and the next year it was 5 bucks. That is more than a little increase. You are even saying that proper inflation would put it at 39? Okay, let's round that to 40 bucks and call it a day. But 10 dollars more is a BIG chunk of the pie. That is a 1/4 price jump for seemingly no reason. By your math and your logic the inflation isn't making up that difference. It might really be that their costs went up (again should be accounted for with inflation) or maybe, possibly (I say probably) that they got greedy and decided that 50 bucks is how much they can wring out of us and set the price there.
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"D&D is not expensive. Let me demonstrate by comparing it to things that are expensive."
This.
I think most of the people complaining about the price tag would balk at spending that much money on other forms of entertainment, though.
I'm pretty sure the people who can afford to buy three $50 video games on a whim aren't the people complaining about D&D's price tag.
I'm pretty sure most of those people (including me) will read this thread and say "Yeah, those things you mention are expensive too. That's why I don't spend money on them either."
And this.
I'm OK with the price. It's 5+ years of fun. Unlike others here, I do quite happily spend that on the occasional meal out. In fact, I paid more than the price of one of those books for two of us to see Godzilla today - and I'd rather have the book!
I'm glad you, Morrus, are personally 'OK' with that price. I'm not like you, a person who runs a forum with thousands of members, with thousands of posts under their belt, with personal ties directly to the product creator/s, and with their own RPG on the market. I don't have that kind of scratch to simply throw away because WotC wants to price it that way. I think it is a dumb idea. Maybe it is what they think they can squeeze. I think there are probably dozens of factors and considerations that went into pricing it the way they did. It doesn't change that from being a stupid idea, IMO.
Let's see what a movie cost:
Godzilla playing on Thursday in 3d in Dolby Atmos at 7:30PM in my local theater (Sherman Oaks Arclight) is $19/ticket, so for two that is $38. I can get the price down at an off-peak time or non-3d, but let's just take a look at the normal peak price when most people go.
Parking is $8.
Large poporn and drinks is $17.75.
So total is $63.75.
HOLY CRAP you spend a lot of money on a movie in whatever region you are at. 19 bucks a ticket?!
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Now with all of that said. At the moment I can't base my buying pattern on a book or material that has not been seen. I said earlier to a buddy of mine, this had better be the best game EVER if they want 150 (or in my case 170) for it. Even in that unlikely case - that it IS the best ever, I am still unlikely to get it at its current price point - can't afford it. At 120 (what the inflation price "should be") that is a little more affordable, still very high for another version of the same product I've purchased twice in the last decade, but more acceptable and would be less of an issue and cause fewer waves.
