MasterTrancer
Explorer
This! Definitely this!
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
D&D 5E Can my table focus on making things fun instead of optimizing?
- Thread starter jodyjohnson
- Start date
This! Definitely this!
MasterTrancer
Explorer
I think that it has mostly to do with mindset, and most of the previous posts I've seen corroborate my claim.
I would say that if you don't have fun anymore you should quit being DM: try having one of your players master for some time, while you rebuild up your mojo.
Switching sides could help with point of views: maybe optimizers suddenly realize that they too can play in another way, maybe you will come to actually like gaming the game.
Most of all, you should NOT resort to that "compromise" thing [MENTION=13009]Paraxis[/MENTION] and [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] have been debating before, because:
1) optimizers will "compromise" that either you let them play how they want, or you're imposing your will
2) if you "game" the charoppers (i.e.: having a lot of social role-play with combat-specific builds), you will only have whinings, and people will (after all, justly) leave your table
That said, it's a matter of tastes; as I said before, maybe you'll get some fun being a player and charopping some (which after all leads to know rules better).
Have fun!
DMZ2112
Chaotic Looseleaf
Optimization is based on a flawed principle, which is to say that the dungeon master must play fair.
Here's my advice:
Step 1: Obtain dark sunglasses.
Step 2: Stop applying damage to your monsters and NPCs.
Step 3: Bask in the glorious whingestorm.
Step 4: Say, "I guess character optimization."
Step 5: Put on sunglasses.
Step 6: Say, "Isn't that optimized."
Here's my advice:
Step 1: Obtain dark sunglasses.
Step 2: Stop applying damage to your monsters and NPCs.
Step 3: Bask in the glorious whingestorm.
Step 4: Say, "I guess character optimization."
Step 5: Put on sunglasses.
Step 6: Say, "Isn't that optimized."
mcbobbo
Explorer
So many great subtopics... but must be brief.
Notes - Yes, very. Go get those little 50 cent spiral pocket notebooks and have each player keep their own up to date. Have them turn them in each night, and award minor perks for participating (as above). The added bonus of being able to go over them during prep is seeing what they thought was important enough to write down. E.g. if they noted 'Glurb the farmer', you might see about working him back in to the next session in place of some other character. It's double-reinforcing, and works really, really well.
Jerks - Don't play with them. Seriously. If you're not enjoying 'Cheese D---' comments, and they don't know it, that's on you. But once you have told them why you want it to stop, and they have decided not to stop, that's on them. You don't have to tolerate it if it makes your game nights less fun.
Optimization - It sucks, plainly, so I do feel your pain. As others have said, you need to bring it out front and address it. If there's no compromise to be had, and you're not willing to adapt, then you've reached the end. Sometimes it happens this way.
Just to nitpick for a second:
What's being described here is a pawn. It's a mechanical construct only. But it could have been 'Geoff the Woodsy who snuffs out the agents of death with his great stubby shillelagh'. If you asked this character, why do you carry that weapon, his reply would necessarily be 'because my DM is stingy with magic items', as above.
So here's at least one avenue of compromise in optimization - try and imagine the best and most well-rounded 'healer' and design towards that. Ignore the DM, the feats list, whether or not there are dragons, etc, and go for the theme. Or, at the utmost, select one trait off of the lists and try to imagine a real actual fantasy person who would have such a thing.
But as stated, this would not be THE BEST!!! character possible. Except of course unless you're playing a role, which the 'best' would include being as plausible as possible.
I'll be fair and say that there could be a 'second pass' over the mechanical concept to skin it with some kind of flavor, but no such thing was stated, so it is at a minimum not nearly as important as the skeleton underneath the skin.
Notes - Yes, very. Go get those little 50 cent spiral pocket notebooks and have each player keep their own up to date. Have them turn them in each night, and award minor perks for participating (as above). The added bonus of being able to go over them during prep is seeing what they thought was important enough to write down. E.g. if they noted 'Glurb the farmer', you might see about working him back in to the next session in place of some other character. It's double-reinforcing, and works really, really well.
Jerks - Don't play with them. Seriously. If you're not enjoying 'Cheese D---' comments, and they don't know it, that's on you. But once you have told them why you want it to stop, and they have decided not to stop, that's on them. You don't have to tolerate it if it makes your game nights less fun.
Optimization - It sucks, plainly, so I do feel your pain. As others have said, you need to bring it out front and address it. If there's no compromise to be had, and you're not willing to adapt, then you've reached the end. Sometimes it happens this way.
Just to nitpick for a second:
What's being described here is a pawn. It's a mechanical construct only. But it could have been 'Geoff the Woodsy who snuffs out the agents of death with his great stubby shillelagh'. If you asked this character, why do you carry that weapon, his reply would necessarily be 'because my DM is stingy with magic items', as above.
So here's at least one avenue of compromise in optimization - try and imagine the best and most well-rounded 'healer' and design towards that. Ignore the DM, the feats list, whether or not there are dragons, etc, and go for the theme. Or, at the utmost, select one trait off of the lists and try to imagine a real actual fantasy person who would have such a thing.
But as stated, this would not be THE BEST!!! character possible. Except of course unless you're playing a role, which the 'best' would include being as plausible as possible.
I'll be fair and say that there could be a 'second pass' over the mechanical concept to skin it with some kind of flavor, but no such thing was stated, so it is at a minimum not nearly as important as the skeleton underneath the skin.
Gaming the DM is part of power gaming/optimization, I would say honestly one of the most important parts. If you know the DM plays favorites to particular races or classes because he likes them, if he is stingy with magic items or if he loves handing out belts of giant strength, if the campaign will focus on undead, dragons, or exploring the wilds, all of this helps you optimize your character better.
In this case, the choice to take the healer feat was to mitigate the need for other healing, and push through encounters even at low levels, the choice for nature cleric was 3 fold, shillelagh, dampen elements, and mitigating encounters with wild animals which are pretty deadly to low level characters.
So this character wasn't exactly the best healer or defender, but I believe he is the best for fulfilling his role in the group which is keeping them alive.
If you know the campaign is going to have a theme, optimize to that theme.
mcbobbo
Explorer
Why does your character know he is in a game, so he can make his life choices accordingly? Is it like the Matrix? Or trained in some Hunger Games style fashion? Or how do you explain it? What is the in-game explanation for your metagaming?
Because that's what we're really talking about here, now that I think about it. "Optimization" is a pretty way of saying 'metagaming during character design'. Is it not?
Indeed, we all know that. But you haven't expressed how your character is optimized to this theme:
http://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/what-is-dd: "You and your friends tell a story together, guiding your heroes through quests for treasure, battles with deadly foes, daring rescues, courtly intrigue, and much more."
Is your story more than "I was as mechanically optimized as possible", and again, how would your character even KNOW he had made the best choices possible without knowing he was a character in a game?
mcbobbo
Explorer
I want to take my theory to the OP.
jodyjohnson would you agree or disagree that your players have metagamed away anything interesting about their characters? Do you think this is an apt description for how you feel?
jodyjohnson would you agree or disagree that your players have metagamed away anything interesting about their characters? Do you think this is an apt description for how you feel?
Don't have one, don't need one. I build a character to be optimized away from the table, with all the knowledge that this is in fact a game, I embrace this away from the table metagaming.
At the table, you don't have to optimize or metagame, you roleplay your character. But my characters try to be the best at what they do, they are heroes. I don't try and save the world or kingdom with scrubs.
mcbobbo
Explorer
How
Does
Your
Character
Know?
For example, how does your character know that he'll need to provide his own magic weapon? And going back a step, how does he know that he will even require one?
Leave it rhetorical if you'd like, because I'm guessing there's no graceful answer here.
My character doesn't need to know, that is my point.
Similar Threads
