D&D 5E Gaming session lessons: why moving slow is important all the time, and the kid learns kiting

[Sunseeker]

This. Things like giant webs, monstrous carcasses, footprints, spoor, ranger signs that say "danger" telegraph danger.

If you ask "Are you really sure you want to do that?" after they answer, thats also a good hint. But simply asking is too subtle.

Right, I mean I ask that at even non-dangerous times, just because I want to keep my players on their toes and want them to think carefully about their actions. Even if the outcome is "You ready your weapons, turn the corner and there's a cat! No, no it's not a demon cat, it's just a...did you really just roll to attack the cat? 25? You're asking me if a 25 hits a cat. You know what? Yes, yes it hits the cat. You kill the poor innocent thing and it's a whole bloody mess. Happy now?"

 

[KarinsDad]

If you ask "Are you really sure you want to do that?" after they answer, thats also a good hint.

I never hint like this. Way too huge of a hint.

 

[DaveDash]

I'm fine with not hinting every random encounter. I want to reward players who invest in feats and perception. What's the point otherwise if surprise can always be avoided by foreshadowing?

 

[transtemporal]

I never hint like this. Way too huge of a hint.

Actually come to think of it I don't really use it as a hint as such. More to highlight a monstrously stupid action that will probably lead to the death of the PC and probably the entire group.

 

[transtemporal]

Right, I mean I ask that at even non-dangerous times, just because I want to keep my players on their toes and want them to think carefully about their actions. Even if the outcome is "You ready your weapons, turn the corner and there's a cat! No, no it's not a demon cat, it's just a...did you really just roll to attack the cat? 25? You're asking me if a 25 hits a cat. You know what? Yes, yes it hits the cat. You kill the poor innocent thing and it's a whole bloody mess. Happy now?"

I'm pretty careful with this particular phrase because it often frames a moral choice and I want to make sure the player didn't misunderstand what I said, e.g. "Theres a cage with innocent citizens above the sharktank. You're pressing the button labelled 'Cage release'. Are you sure you want to do that?"

 

[iserith]

I'm fine with not hinting every random encounter. I want to reward players who invest in feats and perception. What's the point otherwise if surprise can always be avoided by foreshadowing?

As I've said more than once upthread, foreshadowing doesn't always obviate surprise. Consider some outcomes after the DM shows that ankhegs are in the area by showing collapsed tunnels, molted chitin, and the partially-devoured corpse of an orc in a puddle of acrid bile: The players ignore it and carry on. The players examine the clues and draw the wrong conclusions due to inexperience, ignorance, or failed ability checks. The players try to avoid the potential problem by switching to a fast pace (and get a penalty to passive Perception). One or more characters has a flaw that makes him or her act hastily or fearfully and the player wants Inspiration. And so on.

Even if they do figure out that ankhegs hunt in the area where they're walking, the ankhegs are still trying to be stealthy and get to roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check against the PCs unless they have taken some steps to detect them (maybe through a ranger's Natural Explorer class feature, a druid turning into a mole or the like and trying to find them, or some kind of magical spell). Even if you're generous and grant advantage on their passive Perception (+5) because they're all alert to the presence of an anhkeg in particular, the dice may not go their way.

So let's put to rest the notion that foreshadowing always negates the chance of surprise, shall we? What it does do is create the opportunity to engage with the exploration pillar of the game, builds dramatic tension, and gives the players a fair chance to improve their odds against the fake difficulty of a random number generator.

When I DM, all my cards are on the table. Some are face up and others are face down. If the players want to get a chance to see what's under my face down cards, they have to do something proactively in the game to make that happen. They might try, might not try, might succeed, might succeed at a cost or with a setback or complication, or might fail. What I don't do is suddenly pull the card from up my sleeve and throw it on the table while shouting "Gotcha!" Because by my standards, that's not a fair or challenging game.

 

[Schmoe]

TL;DR for the thread

OP - Here's a fun story to relate from my game...
ENWorld - That's not fun, you did it wrong! How can you be such a bad DM? RAWR.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Have you been playing long enough to know the telltale signs of an ankheg lurking about? If so, good! You're applying your hard-won player skill to the situation and that's just fine by me. No rolls are necessary in this case. You can simply act on the knowledge, justifying why your character would know such things as you see fit. (Of course, it's smart play to verify one's assumptions with in-game actions e.g. "I examine the molted chitin, examining its shape and recalling lore on molting beasts..." which may trigger an Intelligence (Nature) check if the DM thinks your action has an uncertain outcome.)

I don't ask for checks unless the players describe what they are doing and I find that the outcome of what they are doing is uncertain. Without context to look around, they can't take actions that might trigger those Investigation, Nature, or Perception checks. That's part of why I'm telegraphing - to paint a picture of the scene (as someone said upthread) and provide the context for meaningful exploration where players can take actions, make decisions, and sometimes roll dice.



Notably, nobody is talking about pixel bitching which is a term that describes a DM applying this approach in a dysfunctional way.

Yeah, that's 25+ years of poring over monster manuals, running ankheg encounters, etc. But it seems unlikely you'd automatically notice sunken trails (the orc melting in goo on the other hand seems a given). So lets say I'm aware there are ankhegs in the area, then what?

Also, I know we arent talking about fapping around with 10 foot poles, which I've long gathered you also arent a fan of from your various posts. But can you elaborate after you've given the players the "ankhegs here!" cues, what the next step would be in your game with your typical players? I ask because I'm interested in your group's style. To me, it sounds like many players would just search for burrows and most likely avoid the encounter. As a player, I'd rather my horse get pulled under and killed and have to fight my way out. Assuming traps aren't just stupid spring loaded crossbows, I want them tripped to interact with over the course of a scene. Its more fun to race the boulder to me.

 

[iserith]

Yeah, that's 25+ years of poring over monster manuals, running ankheg encounters, etc. But it seems unlikely you'd automatically notice sunken trails (the orc melting in goo on the other hand seems a given). So lets say I'm aware there are ankhegs in the area, then what?

At a dramatically appropriate moment, the ankhegs attack unless the players take actions that allow them to successfully avoid the monsters. This might even be as a result of a failed check during exploration or because of an action that would reasonably cause them to strike. (Or maybe if the characters successfully found the ankhegs, they can strike first.)

Also, I know we arent talking about fapping around with 10 foot poles, which I've long gathered you also arent a fan of from your various posts. But can you elaborate after you've given the players the "ankhegs here!" cues, what the next step would be in your game with your typical players? I ask because I'm interested in your group's style. To me, it sounds like many players would just search for burrows and most likely avoid the encounter. As a player, I'd rather my horse get pulled under and killed and have to fight my way out. Assuming traps aren't just stupid spring loaded crossbows, I want them tripped to interact with over the course of a scene. Its more fun to race the boulder to me.

The typical players at my table tend to explore those clues, taking actions as necessary so they can draw conclusions about the threats they face. Armed with whatever knowledge they glean from this interaction, they can take whatever precautions they deem necessary. If they seek to avoid the ankhegs, maybe they have the ranger try to lead them away safely which may result in a group check to Stealth away (failure on which might mean the ankhegs attack). Perhaps they set up a trap for the ankhegs, pounding the ground in a particular location while everyone else readies attacks to blast them when they emerge. Maybe they simply slow their roll through the area while giving the situation the hairy eyeball, resulting in advantage to the passive Perception checks (or whatever). Perhaps they all slather on some anti-acid ointment just in case. Every situation is different.

My players tend to be like you - they'd rather get into and out of danger than avoid it entirely. So it's likely that they'll take some reasonable actions to make themselves ready to face the threat or try to stir up trouble and then see what happens. If they voluntarily take disadvantage on an ability check to resolve an action with an uncertain outcome or otherwise choose to incur a cost or setback, they get Inspiration by justifying this via their traits, ideals, bonds, or flaws.

What you won't see is a ton of time spent on poking and prodding, planning debates (we use "Yes, and..." improvisational techniques to avoid debates), unreasonable failure mitigation, or checking off all the boxes on a rote "standard operating procedure."

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Have you been playing long enough to know the telltale signs of an ankheg lurking about? If so, good! You're applying your hard-won player skill to the situation and that's just fine by me. No rolls are necessary in this case. You can simply act on the knowledge, justifying why your character would know such things as you see fit. (Of course, it's smart play to verify one's assumptions with in-game actions e.g. "I examine the molted chitin, examining its shape and recalling lore on molting beasts..." which may trigger an Intelligence (Nature) check if the DM thinks your action has an uncertain outcome.)

While I don't think I would mind the OP's method, your way sounds like FUN. Engaging player skill is better than die rolls for fun-factor. I also like another poster's suggestion of rolling up random encounters in advance, although I don't yet have the ability to predict what PCs will do and where they will go. (So I will probably cheat: roll up the random encounter while the players are talking to each other. That way I get at least a couple minutes to think up spoor instead of mere seconds.)

Thanks for the thread!