D&D 5E Gaming session lessons: why moving slow is important all the time, and the kid learns kiting

[Sunseeker]

I think you're mistaken again. Go look up a trap door spider. That one real life example pretty much proves all the points above aren't always the case.

There are a variety of trap-door spiders and some are better at making cover than others and there are STILL usually signs of their presence. NOTHING has perfect hiding.

 

[Sacrosanct]

There are a variety of trap-door spiders and some are better at making cover than others and there are STILL usually signs of their presence. NOTHING has perfect hiding.

Really? This is pretty darn good. And again, it doesn't need to have perfect hiding. Just enough to be better than the passive perception of those walking by. I get the impression that you and a few others are implying that if there are ANY signs, then they MUST be detected. Which is quite obviously not true. if a PC is not actively searching, they use passive perception. That's the whole point of passive perception.

 

[iserith]

I think you are making a very important point here, Iserith. The importance of dropping clues and verbal cues to signal a change from normal travel. Give them a reason why they would or could be on aware. Paint the picture. Now if they miss the clues/cues it is game-on. But give the players an opportunity to react appropriately to their environment.

If a DM choses to drop the monster in, seemingly out of nowhere (not saying OP did this), players will often over react going forward and not trust anything. Checking every nook and cranny for a trap and hidden monster. So there is a back and forth that goes on.

Thanks for the kind words and, yes, exactly. I think [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] underscores your point well here.

My issues are dropping enough clues/cues that something is important and the importance of them without spilling the beans completely about what is about to transpire.

The way I am handling it now if something is not important say an NPC for example, I will give 3 basic descriptors. If something is moderate 5 and if it is important maybe 7 details. (3-5-7) My hopes as DM are that this signals to players, hey that barkeep might be someone we want to interact with vs just a vanilla NPC.

That seems like a good guideline. I wish I could say it was more science than art and that it always works aplomb. Experience helps, of course.

 

[Sunseeker]

Really? This is pretty darn good. And again, it doesn't need to have perfect hiding. Just enough to be better than the passive perception of those walking by. I get the impression that you and a few others are implying that if there are ANY signs, then they MUST be detected. Which is quite obviously not true. if a PC is not actively searching, they use passive perception. That's the whole point of passive perception.

It's also less than an inch in size. We're talking about monsters that are upwards of 8 feet long. That's a lot more beastie to hide.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It's also less than an inch in size. We're talking about monsters that are upwards of 8 feet long. That's a lot more beastie to hide.

Fine.

There's another one, a lot larger. Honestly, it seems odd to me why you're being steadfastly adamant on your position when literally every example I am providing shows it to be the contrary. In real life, these types of creatures do no leave shells of their prey just lying around. And like I said that obviously bears repeating, even if there were signs, they aren't automatically detected. That's what passive perception is used for.


At some point the players need to be accountable for their decisions. As the DM, I'm the referee to keep things fair. I am not favoring the PCs and/or making up for their poor choices.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

No, what this creates is 10'-pole players. Which drags down the game and makes people paranoid, rules-lawyery and all around un-fun. As a DM, I never want to look like a jerk. I give my players fair chance and if they screw it up that's on them, they're not mind-readers and I'm not psychic.


You're missing the trees for the forest. Every threat does telegraph itsself, but not always in obvious ways. That's what needs to be established and what I feel like was completely missing from your game. There are plenty of ways to make stealth really useful while also making the players aware that they may be walking into danger.


Ankhegs are giant(large size) bugs that burst forth from the ground and consume unlucky passersby. Their territory is going to be fairly simple, open terrain. Large, rooted plants and massive boulders will keep them from being able to get ideal positioning. There will also be signs of their presence if they are common in the area, man-size burrows can be found around them from both where they burst out of the ground and where they come out of it naturally for whatever reason. The ground is also likely to be quite loose, possibly even having sunken "trails" from where their tunnels have collapsed over time.

There are lots of comparative creatures that are "ambush predators" in real life, but signs of their presence are fairly obvious and those creatures are usually quite small (insects). A 8ft+ insect is going to have a lot of trouble being subtle about its presence in the area.

This is what I'm getting at. The presence of something potentially bad in the area is "telegraphed" by burrows and disturbed earth in open, plain areas.

Three points:

1.) Re: SOP, there's a world of difference between "we sneak as SOP, keeping our eyes open" (OP's players declined to do this) and "we spend game time tapping every stone with a 10' pole." One reason you want an SOP is so that the PCs do it automatically without spending game time on it. Is it really so onerous to require the players to honor the threat by at least keeping their eyes open? (As mentioned previously, I'm okay with inferring pace from behavior instead of asking "how fast are you traveling?") OP's players were apparently treating a dangerous environment like a safe city street--even if there were ankheg burrows they're not really in a state of mind to notice them unless they are unusually alert--covered by passive perception in 5E, although the old-school way sounds fine too if you prefer that concrete approach.

2.) When you say "what was completely missing from your game," are you talking to me still? I'm not the OP. I'm a fairly new DM who has never yet worried about travel pace in any game session, and is in this thread to collect ideas for when I do run this kind of scenario.

3.) It would be AWESOME if the MM had info on hunting behavior, organization, signs that this creature is in the vicinity (e.g. Carrion Crawlers leave goo puddles that glow orange in the dark) so you didn't have to make up ankheg spoor on the fly.

 

[iserith]

Fine.

There's another one, a lot larger. Honestly, it seems odd to me why you're being steadfastly adamant on your position when literally every example I am providing shows it to be the contrary. In real life, these types of creatures do no leave shells of their prey just lying around. And like I said that obviously bears repeating, even if there were signs, they aren't automatically detected. That's what passive perception is used for.​

The game isn't real life. Real life isn't fair. Some believe that a game should be. Telegraphing threats is a way to ensure the game is fair.

At some point the players need to be accountable for their decisions. As the DM, I'm the referee to keep things fair. I am not favoring the PCs and/or making up for their poor choices.

I don't think anyone would take issue with this point or is arguing the contrary. What some are suggesting is that part of setting up fair situations where players can make decisions for which they can be held accountable involves telegraphing the threat - providing clues that the players can discover and use to make deductions and take action accordingly. This quite literally costs the DM nothing, helps build rich fictional scenes scenes and palpable tension, and allows the players agency to rob randomness (and the fake difficulty that can come with it) of its power. And even with telegraphing, there is no guarantee the players will make the right decisions or avoid the threat. It simply provides them an opportunity to do so. The rest is on the players.

Having said that, it could be argued that your players should know you by now and that since there is no downside to moving at a slow pace, they should do that. If that's what it takes to have a better shot at avoid surprise, then that's what they need to do. Some of us are saying there's another way to approach this situation.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The game isn't real life. Real life isn't fair. Some believe that a game should be. Telegraphing threats is a way to ensure the game is fair.
.

No, that would be the opposite of fair since you're skewing the benefit in favor of one group over another (PCs vs everything else), and not treating all inhabitants the same---ergo, unfairly. Threats, along with everything else, should be telegraphed as they would normally be, and detected with a success based on the PC's abilities. That's it. Anything else is coddling the players.

 

[iserith]

Three points:

1.) Re: SOP, there's a world of difference between "we sneak as SOP, keeping our eyes open" (OP's players declined to do this) and "we spend game time tapping every stone with a 10' pole." One reason you want an SOP is so that the PCs do it automatically without spending game time on it. Is it really so onerous to require the players to honor the threat by at least keeping their eyes open? (As mentioned previously, I'm okay with inferring pace from behavior instead of asking "how fast are you traveling?") OP's players were apparently treating a dangerous environment like a safe city street--even if there were ankheg burrows they're not really in a state of mind to notice them unless they are unusually alert--covered by passive perception in 5E, although the old-school way sounds fine too if you prefer that concrete approach.

What was described sounded like a cool environment, but not necessarily a dangerous one to me (based on what was shared). But since I've been playing so long, I know that if there's no rush, then moving slow costs nothing.

2.) When you say "what was completely missing from your game," are you talking to me still? I'm not the OP. I'm a fairly new DM who has never yet worried about travel pace in any game session, and is in this thread to collect ideas for when I do run this kind of scenario.

Check out how I handle pace in this re-imagining of the Cragmaw Hideout in LMoP. You might find some ideas here. In short, the players are choosing route and pace which modifies the frequency and types of possible random encounters and sets the amount of time spent travelling between important areas - which is itself important because of a "threat meter" based on time. When time's up, the goblins rally. This creates a lot of meaningful decision points depending on how things unfold.

3.) It would be AWESOME if the MM had info on hunting behavior, organization, signs that this creature is in the vicinity (e.g. Carrion Crawlers leave goo puddles that glow orange in the dark) so you didn't have to make up ankheg spoor on the fly.

The Monster Manual does have that kind of thing in it. It says ankhegs leave collapsed tunnels, some of which contain molted chitin or broken eggs. You can also just look to their stat blocks to telegraph things they can do. The partially-eaten orc corpse in the acid pool of bile I mentioned upthread is an example of showing the PCs something it can do. It also provides a clue they might use to deduce the threats in the area either through player skill or taking action to recall lore or make deductions which might call for Intelligence (Nature) or Intelligence (Investigation) checks if the action described has an uncertain outcome. Knowing that there are monsters about that can taken down an orc and sprays some kind of acid also helps raise tension. Further, by showing the orc corpse, the DM tips his hand to the orc settlement the OP mentioned later on. It all fits together to make a very nice coherent whole.

 

[Jacob Marley]

Three points:

1.) Re: SOP, there's a world of difference between "we sneak as SOP, keeping our eyes open" (OP's players declined to do this) and "we spend game time tapping every stone with a 10' pole." One reason you want an SOP is so that the PCs do it automatically without spending game time on it. Is it really so onerous to require the players to honor the threat by at least keeping their eyes open? (As mentioned previously, I'm okay with inferring pace from behavior instead of asking "how fast are you traveling?") OP's players were apparently treating a dangerous environment like a safe city street--even if there were ankheg burrows they're not really in a state of mind to notice them unless they are unusually alert--covered by passive perception in 5E, although the old-school way sounds fine too if you prefer that concrete approach.

2.) When you say "what was completely missing from your game," are you talking to me still? I'm not the OP. I'm a fairly new DM who has never yet worried about travel pace in any game session, and is in this thread to collect ideas for when I do run this kind of scenario.

3.) It would be AWESOME if the MM had info on hunting behavior, organization, signs that this creature is in the vicinity (e.g. Carrion Crawlers leave goo puddles that glow orange in the dark) so you didn't have to make up ankheg spoor on the fly.

It would be! However, since the Monster Manual lacks this information, and you need to provide, rather than rolling your random encounters during the session you can roll them ahead of time. You can focus on these details during prep rather than trying to come up with them on the spot. I've been doing this for ten years with my AD&D Greyhawk campaign. I have the encounter tables, I know the frequency, I have a generally good idea of where my players are going, and I have a generally good idea of what their alternate plans are; so rolling ahead of time allows me to focus on these types of details. (It also keeps the pace of the session going as I no longer have to stop and think up an encounter.)