D&D 5E Gaming session lessons: why moving slow is important all the time, and the kid learns kiting

I'm getting the feeling that either you're not translating well to us how you winked and raised an eyebrow at the actions of the PCs, or you just went BAM! Surprise monsters! I'm not sure if your questions to the party are common at your table a lead in to "you need to be paying extra careful attention to stuff now" and if they are then its on your players to learn how the DM plays (if you play in a sane, trackable manner of course). If it's not, I'll be honest, I usually say something other than "are you proceeding?" in order to get player attention that they might want to, in the words of Scar, BE PREPARED! Because if I throw Illidan at them without warning and say "You are not prepared!" well I kinda look like a jerk.

I don't mind looking like a jerk occasionally. The lesson in this case (be cautious in dungeons) seems like a valid one and a realistic one, so I wouldn't feel compelled to make the corpses of previous victims magically appear. Ankhegs are ambush predators, fine. The guy who took the Alert feat gets to shine, and everyone else gets to reconsider their SOP for foreign environments.

If every threat always telegraphs itself, stealth loses a lot of its value.

Note: this applies to ankhegs because they are ambush predators. For bugbears, they'd need some way to know the party was coming before they'd hide. Like maybe a kobold sentry or something. If you take out the sentry quietly, bugbears won't hide.

P.S. This thread has made me reconsider the "pace" thing though. I think next time I do something like this, instead of declaring a pace I'll run then through a fake encounter to discover their SOP ("you see a hillock about five hundred yards away in your line of travel... What do you do?") and then infer their pace from there ("you guys are still moving directly toward the hillock at full speed as a single large group, but you are also watching the cracks and crevices. It seems to me that you guys are moving at a normal pace, trying to balance speed and reasonable caution; is that right?").
 
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As well, I don't use passive checks in most of my games. I think that simply comparing two numbers to each other and then hitting the PCs with a surprise attack is "fake difficulty" in that the outcome is not reasonably determined by the player's actions. To be fair, the passive check does represent the average result of performing a task repeatedly - in this case, "keeping an eye out for hidden threats." But given that there are only a few things that will cause you to be unable to do this (see "Other Activities," Basic Rules, page 65), most of which won't see play, it kicks most of the decision-making back to character creation alone, encouraging players to pump Perception rather than interact with the game environment in a meaningful and interesting way. Surprise does still happen in this approach; however, it's not presented or received as a "gotcha" situation. The players had a real opportunity to take action before the threat is revealed, even if they botch the job (or fail to take action at all).

Pace is the decision point. If they're traveling at fast pace they take disadvantage on their passive perception check.

Adding die rolls doesn't increase player agency; only adding decision points does. So I don't see a problem with passive checks.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Pace is the decision point. If they're traveling at fast pace they take disadvantage on their passive perception check.

Adding die rolls doesn't increase player agency; only adding decision points does. So I don't see a problem with passive checks.

Pace generally only matters if there is a time crunch sufficient to need to at least occasionally move at a fast pace (something I generally have in my adventures). Otherwise, you default to moving slowly to maximize your chances of noticing hidden threats. That's not much of a decision point. It depends largely on whether or not the DM included time pressure in the scenario. Most players I encounter already know this. The OP's players apparently did not (or forgot).

Removing passive checks doesn't necessarily increase die rolls, nor did I make any assertions that increasing the number of rolls increases agency. After all, die rolls simply resolve uncertainty, and that's all. I'm an advocate for the "middle path" with regard to the Role of the Dice (DMG, pages 236-237). To that end, the active decision making of the players in the wake of the DM describing the environment may obviate the need to check for surprise at all - they are either definitely surprised (automatic success) or definitely not surprised (automatic failure). In other cases, a check may be appropriate. "By balancing the use of dice against deciding on success, you can encourage your players to strike a balance between relying on their bonuses and abilities and paying attention to the game and immersing themselves in its world."
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
I describe things that are notable with the assumption of reasonable competence on the part of the adventurers. Perhaps instead that pile of carcasses is significantly larger than what they've seen before or more thoroughly picked clean or suspiciously free of any kind of putrid smell or there's a large four-toed footprint in the mud near it, partially filling with water. Now, "What do you do?" There may be no encounter here whatsoever. It might simply be an opportunity to explore.


In my experience, this is not how it plays out. Really, I want the players to be "on alert" in the sense that they're paying attention to their surroundings and interacting with them in meaningful ways. As well, not every description of an environment results in an encounter (see above).

Explore what though? Are you creating a new adventure on the fly? I think that nearly every DM description should result in something worthwhile though, not necessarily an encounter.

I tend to dislike what I call pedestrian roleplaying and pedestrian exploration (although having totally empty or non-interesting rooms in a dungeon are fine, I just tend to only have some of those).

If I describe some carcasses, I want there to be an in game reason that this information is important later on, even if there is no encounter at the moment.

I also do not want stupid little "the Bard hits on the barmaid" roleplaying sessions. Or, angst roleplaying sessions. These might be fun for some players, but when 5 players are sitting there listening to this type of thing while one players is just bull____ing, it's a waste of gaming time IMO. If the Bard is hitting on the barmaid in an attempt to get specific information that he thinks she might have, that's a beast of a different color.

Some DMs add in pedestrian stuff, just so that the players and they can now suddenly create a brand new DM unprepared story out of whole cloth on the fly. I'm not that type of DM. There is enough story getting created without having to jumpstart it with pedestrian stuff. Granted, all DMs through stuff in on the spur of the moment that they just thought of (the Duke's son shows up riding his horse as the PCs are heading to the market), but I want it to be meaningful stuff, not just a chat with the Duke's son that has no real effect on the game at all. Some DMs might feel that these types of pedestrian events make the game feel more organic and real, but there are only so many gaming hours per session (and at the moment, we are lucky to be playing every other weekend), so I prefer to cut to the chase.

Further, even if the players are engaged in metagame thinking, I'm okay with that so long as they take actions in the game to verify their assumptions. Metagame thinking is only a problem when a player's expectation turns out to be wrong in a dissatisfying way, such as when they assume an encounter is "level appropriate" then proceed to get their ass kicked (see DMG, page 235). But that's on the player. I can't control how other people think or how they make decisions for their characters. I can only provide them with opportunities to engage with the three pillars of the game as they see fit.

Taking actions is usually not an issue. Getting players to take DM desired actions sometimes is.

DM: "You see that the river goes further inland into some hills." (the DM knows that there are caves and adventure in the hills, but the caves cannot be seen from the current location)

Player: "Ok, we cross the river and continue our journey."

As a DM, I am totally ok with this decision. Typically, I am not going to be bothered by the fact that the players did not follow my subtle hint, nor am I going to add a bunch of overt hints, just to make sure that they pick up on my clues.

I probably would not start this same conversation out with:

DM: "You see that the river goes further inland into some hills. The river is wide and deep here and will take longer to cross. Maybe upstream, the river might be less deep. And you see a rock feature on one of the hills, but you cannot make it out from here."

Some DMs will make environmental descriptions like this latter one, practically hitting their players over the head with the direction that they want the PCs to head towards. I'm not one of those DMs. I do give hints and indications (and even an occasional railroad), but mostly if the players do not pick up on it or blow me off, I don't care too much and I usually am only overt with things that I feel should be overt. I just also typically have a backup plan (what happens if they just cross the river) and go with that.


As an example, one of my most recent "railroads" was to have two of the PCs have a dream from deities to get them to go in a certain direction and look for certain magic items. One dream was from the goddess Mystra for one PC, one was from the goddess Tymora for another PC. This to the players (who btw, I took off to the side separately, so the other players do not know why these two PCs are voting for a given group direction) seems like obviously railroading because what PC is going to not follow the wishes of a deity? In reality, both of these were set up by one of the BBEG's lieutenants drugging the two PCs before they went to bed in the inn, and then entering their rooms and casting an illusion of what he wanted them to see and do. Later on in the adventure, those two players will find out that this was all part of the evil plan and had nothing to do with deities. The NPCs were getting the PCs to go find specific magic items that the NPCs knew about and wanted, but it was too dangerous for the NPCs to get those items themselves. Yup, a railroad of sorts, but one that was based solely on things that I had already determined existed in the campaign and things that happened earlier with the PC / NPC interactions. The players of those two PCs could have decided to ignore the dreams (or could have been outvoted by the other four players), but the reason the NPC picked deities in the first place was because most creatures in a fantasy world like this would never think to ignore a dream sent by a deity.
 

Dausuul

Legend
From the player's perspective (not the PC's, but the player's), what is the down side to declaring that you move cautiously and stealthily? Is there any reason to not have your PC in Cautious Exploration Mode at all times, even when having dinner at home?

If the answer is "There is no down side, you should always move cautiously," then it seems like a silly game of gotcha to make the players declare "Yes, I am moving cautiously." You're punishing them for trying to imagine the world through their characters' eyes and engage with that world like a real person--for whom there are concerns like boredom, fatigue, and discomfort--instead of a Dungeoneer Exploratron 3000. There is nothing to be learned here except that when the DM asks a question about how your PC is behaving, the answer is always "We are being cautious. We are checking for traps. We are making Perception checks. We are posting a watch. Thank you for choosing Dungeoneer Exploratron and we look forward to continuing to serve your murderhoboing needs."

Why not assume the party is moving cautiously unless there is a reason they might rationally choose otherwise?
 
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Superking

Explorer
Okay, thanks for explaining. It seems like it was "You're walking along and then ANKHEG!" with the DM checking for surprise and combat ensuing. Is that accurate? I'm interested in how other DMs do things.

I think you are making a very important point here, Iserith. The importance of dropping clues and verbal cues to signal a change from normal travel. Give them a reason why they would or could be on aware. Paint the picture. Now if they miss the clues/cues it is game-on. But give the players an opportunity to react appropriately to their environment.

If a DM choses to drop the monster in, seemingly out of nowhere (not saying OP did this), players will often over react going forward and not trust anything. Checking every nook and cranny for a trap and hidden monster. So there is a back and forth that goes on.

My issues are dropping enough clues/cues that something is important and the importance of them without spilling the beans completely about what is about to transpire.

The way I am handling it now if something is not important say an NPC for example, I will give 3 basic descriptors. If something is moderate 5 and if it is important maybe 7 details. (3-5-7) My hopes as DM are that this signals to players, hey that barkeep might be someone we want to interact with vs just a vanilla NPC.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I don't mind looking like a jerk occasionally. The lesson in this case (be cautious in dungeons) seems like a valid one and a realistic one, so I wouldn't feel compelled to make the corpses of previous victims magically appear. Ankhegs are ambush predators, fine. The guy who took the Alert feat gets to shine, and everyone else gets to reconsider their SOP for foreign environments.
No, what this creates is 10'-pole players. Which drags down the game and makes people paranoid, rules-lawyery and all around un-fun. As a DM, I never want to look like a jerk. I give my players fair chance and if they screw it up that's on them, they're not mind-readers and I'm not psychic.

If every threat always telegraphs itself, stealth loses a lot of its value.
You're missing the trees for the forest. Every threat does telegraph itsself, but not always in obvious ways. That's what needs to be established and what I feel like was completely missing from your game. There are plenty of ways to make stealth really useful while also making the players aware that they may be walking into danger.

Note: this applies to ankhegs because they are ambush predators. For bugbears, they'd need some way to know the party was coming before they'd hide. Like maybe a kobold sentry or something. If you take out the sentry quietly, bugbears won't hide.
Ankhegs are giant(large size) bugs that burst forth from the ground and consume unlucky passersby. Their territory is going to be fairly simple, open terrain. Large, rooted plants and massive boulders will keep them from being able to get ideal positioning. There will also be signs of their presence if they are common in the area, man-size burrows can be found around them from both where they burst out of the ground and where they come out of it naturally for whatever reason. The ground is also likely to be quite loose, possibly even having sunken "trails" from where their tunnels have collapsed over time.

There are lots of comparative creatures that are "ambush predators" in real life, but signs of their presence are fairly obvious and those creatures are usually quite small (insects). A 8ft+ insect is going to have a lot of trouble being subtle about its presence in the area.

This is what I'm getting at. The presence of something potentially bad in the area is "telegraphed" by burrows and disturbed earth in open, plain areas.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Explore what though? Are you creating a new adventure on the fly? I think that nearly every DM description should result in something worthwhile though, not necessarily an encounter.

I tend to dislike what I call pedestrian roleplaying and pedestrian exploration (although having totally empty or non-interesting rooms in a dungeon are fine, I just tend to only have some of those).

If I describe some carcasses, I want there to be an in game reason that this information is important later on, even if there is no encounter at the moment.

I also do not want stupid little "the Bard hits on the barmaid" roleplaying sessions. Or, angst roleplaying sessions. These might be fun for some players, but when 5 players are sitting there listening to this type of thing while one players is just bull____ing, it's a waste of gaming time IMO. If the Bard is hitting on the barmaid in an attempt to get specific information that he thinks she might have, that's a beast of a different color.

Some DMs add in pedestrian stuff, just so that the players and they can now suddenly create a brand new DM unprepared story out of whole cloth on the fly. I'm not that type of DM. There is enough story getting created without having to jumpstart it with pedestrian stuff. Granted, all DMs through stuff in on the spur of the moment that they just thought of (the Duke's son shows up riding his horse as the PCs are heading to the market), but I want it to be meaningful stuff, not just a chat with the Duke's son that has no real effect on the game at all. Some DMs might feel that these types of pedestrian events make the game feel more organic and real, but there are only so many gaming hours per session (and at the moment, we are lucky to be playing every other weekend), so I prefer to cut to the chase.

I'm not sure exactly how we got here from where we started, but I agree that some of the stuff you describe is boring when done poorly. My ideal game experience sees bold adventurers confronting deadly perils in worlds of sword and sorcery. Transition scenes, where there is meaningful character interaction, are important though and I do my best to keep it focused and on task. When the dramatic question of such a scene is answered, then it's time to generate action again by describing the environment and asking "What do you do?" This is evident in my actual play transcripts, if you care to take a look.

To answer your questions, when I refer to the chance to explore, I mean what the Basic Rules say on the matter (page 5): "Exploration includes both the adventurers’ movement through the world and their interaction with objects and situations that require their attention." I describe, they interact, and they perhaps find things relevant to what's going on. As to whether I'm creating an adventure on the fly? I have my prep, but I also improvise, like anyone else. If the players make erroneous deductions about what they discover and go in a direction away from the adventure location, then I'll just continue doing what DMs do: Place interesting genre-appropriate obstacles in their way to be overcome as they seek to achieve their goals. The story arises out of what they do in the face of what I present.

Taking actions is usually not an issue. Getting players to take DM desired actions sometimes is.

DM: "You see that the river goes further inland into some hills." (the DM knows that there are caves and adventure in the hills, but the caves cannot be seen from the current location)

Player: "Ok, we cross the river and continue our journey."

As a DM, I am totally ok with this decision. Typically, I am not going to be bothered by the fact that the players did not follow my subtle hint, nor am I going to add a bunch of overt hints, just to make sure that they pick up on my clues.

I probably would not start this same conversation out with:

DM: "You see that the river goes further inland into some hills. The river is wide and deep here and will take longer to cross. Maybe upstream, the river might be less deep. And you see a rock feature on one of the hills, but you cannot make it out from here."

Some DMs will make environmental descriptions like this latter one, practically hitting their players over the head with the direction that they want the PCs to head towards. I'm not one of those DMs. I do give hints and indications (and even an occasional railroad), but mostly if the players do not pick up on it or blow me off, I don't care too much and I usually am only overt with things that I feel should be overt. I just also typically have a backup plan (what happens if they just cross the river) and go with that.

I don't make it my agenda to have players make any particular decision except for those that lead to everyone having a good time and to creating an exciting, memorable story as a result of play. But the players are aware of these goals of play at the outset and endeavor to make choices accordingly that are also in line with the context of the situation and their established characterization.

The first example you give isn't very interesting. The latter one is better (but not great) because it invites the players to engage with the exploration pillar of the game. I'm not very interested in hiding adventure locations, preferring to "cut to the chase" as you say above. And since my players know the shortest route to achieving the goals of play is to be bold adventurers confronting deadly perils and check interesting things out. This doesn't mean they have to - after all, they can go some other direction and I'll provide them with fun conflict as well. I see my role as helping the players to define their characters' goals, then placing engaging conflicts between them and their goals. If I'm running a plot-based adventure, I talk to the players beforehand, get their buy-in, and ask them to work together to establish goals that coincide with the expected events of the storyline.

As an example, one of my most recent "railroads" was to have two of the PCs have a dream from deities to get them to go in a certain direction and look for certain magic items. One dream was from the goddess Mystra for one PC, one was from the goddess Tymora for another PC. This to the players (who btw, I took off to the side separately, so the other players do not know why these two PCs are voting for a given group direction) seems like obviously railroading because what PC is going to not follow the wishes of a deity? In reality, both of these were set up by one of the BBEG's lieutenants drugging the two PCs before they went to bed in the inn, and then entering their rooms and casting an illusion of what he wanted them to see and do. Later on in the adventure, those two players will find out that this was all part of the evil plan and had nothing to do with deities. The NPCs were getting the PCs to go find specific magic items that the NPCs knew about and wanted, but it was too dangerous for the NPCs to get those items themselves. Yup, a railroad of sorts, but one that was based solely on things that I had already determined existed in the campaign and things that happened earlier with the PC / NPC interactions. The players of those two PCs could have decided to ignore the dreams (or could have been outvoted by the other four players), but the reason the NPC picked deities in the first place was because most creatures in a fantasy world like this would never think to ignore a dream sent by a deity.

I don't consider this to be an example of the DM railroading. You presented an adventure hook and they made a choice. They could easily have just said, "What a weird dream I had last night - must've been the ale" and struck out for the dungeon or whatever instead. Presuming that's appropriate for your group's social contract.

Somewhere in this discussion we've gotten a little off track I think. To bring it back around, what I want to do is present a fair game with meaningful choices. I consider something fair when the players have a chance to hear what I describe and take steps to rob randomness of its power and turn things in their favor if they're equal to the task. I consider something a meaningful choice when, one way or another, what the players choose impacts the game in some measurable way. I would say that the ankheg encounter didn't live up to my standards in this regard; however, it bears mentioning that how I see it and how the OP sees it is not necessarily right or wrong but a matter of preference.
 

Removing passive checks doesn't necessarily increase die rolls, nor did I make any assertions that increasing the number of rolls increases agency. After all, die rolls simply resolve uncertainty, and that's all. I'm an advocate for the "middle path" with regard to the Role of the Dice (DMG, pages 236-237). To that end, the active decision making of the players in the wake of the DM describing the environment may obviate the need to check for surprise at all - they are either definitely surprised (automatic success) or definitely not surprised (automatic failure). In other cases, a check may be appropriate. "By balancing the use of dice against deciding on success, you can encourage your players to strike a balance between relying on their bonuses and abilities and paying attention to the game and immersing themselves in its world."

Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
No, what this creates is 10'-pole players. Which drags down the game and makes people paranoid, rules-lawyery and all around un-fun. As a DM, I never want to look like a jerk. I give my players fair chance and if they screw it up that's on them, they're not mind-readers and I'm not psychic.

No it doesn't. All it does is have players say, "We're going to be moving cautiously from here on out, keeping an eye out for any signs of danger." or "We are going to be prodding the floor with our pole, and listening to every door we see going forward." And that's it. I don't know any DM that makes players repeat the same thing in every area or encounter. Unless things change (like them telling me), I go by what they said. It doesn't really slow anything down. Instead, it tells me how they are moving and what they are doing.

You're missing the trees for the forest. Every threat does telegraph itsself, but not always in obvious ways. That's what needs to be established and what I feel like was completely missing from your game. There are plenty of ways to make stealth really useful while also making the players aware that they may be walking into danger.


Ankhegs are giant(large size) bugs that burst forth from the ground and consume unlucky passersby. Their territory is going to be fairly simple, open terrain. Large, rooted plants and massive boulders will keep them from being able to get ideal positioning. There will also be signs of their presence if they are common in the area, man-size burrows can be found around them from both where they burst out of the ground and where they come out of it naturally for whatever reason. The ground is also likely to be quite loose, possibly even having sunken "trails" from where their tunnels have collapsed over time.

There are lots of comparative creatures that are "ambush predators" in real life, but signs of their presence are fairly obvious and those creatures are usually quite small (insects). A 8ft+ insect is going to have a lot of trouble being subtle about its presence in the area.

This is what I'm getting at. The presence of something potentially bad in the area is "telegraphed" by burrows and disturbed earth in open, plain areas.

I think you're mistaken again. Go look up a trap door spider. That one real life example pretty much proves all the points above aren't always the case. And more to the point, even if there are signs, they aren't automatically detected by everyone who just happens to be walking by. That's what perception checks are for.
 
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