D&D 5E Gaming session lessons: why moving slow is important all the time, and the kid learns kiting

[Sacrosanct]

Last night we played a session of my Felk Mor megadungeon for a few hours, and the group learned two valuable lessons:

1: Part of the campaign is a vast subterranean cavern. I'm talking big. Miles wide by miles long. It's pretty much it's own habitat, with mushroom forests, rivers of quicksilver, etc. The party needed to travel from one side to the other, and headed out. At regular pace. Like it was a normal stroll. What happened? They got surprised by two ankhegs, and in short order, the paladin was dropped and the sorcerer was at only a few HP remaining (they were a group of 4e level 5 PCs).

Lesson learned: Move slowly, and pay attention to your surroundings when in a hostile area, so you can make an actual perception check instead of relying on passive perception. Especially when the DM asks you more than once how you're moving

2: Upon approaching and being welcomed into an orc encampment (the PC was 1/2 orc), the rogue parlayed with the orc chieftain for a while, and eventually a duel to prove the rogue's worth was imminent. He had to fight one of the elite orc guards. It was only subdual damage, and not to the death. I was thinking, "Man, the rogue is going to get pasted. It's not set to his advantage, since it's a straight arena fight and he can't take advantage of his stealth. The elite orc guard had chain mail and 2 great ax attacks, and had 40 hp. Against a level 5 rogue in an arena? Not good. So what did the player do? Threw out caltrops and basically kited the orc to death. Between cunning action, taunting the orc, and ranged attacks with the elite orc being reduced in movement, it took a long time, but I (as the elite orc) could never quite get close enough.

Point of context: The player is my 13 year old son who hasn't played a single MMO or video game where something like kiting would even be something he would have done. It was a new concept for him and he figured it out quickly. The first time when I just moved around the caltrops, he immediately went into taunt mode, causing the orc to rage and forget they were there on the next pass.

Lesson learned: thinking outside of the box will often save your bacon (ha! pun. orc = pig. pig = bacon. get it?

 

[iserith]

Last night we played a session of my Felk Mor megadungeon for a few hours, and the group learned two valuable lessons:

1: Part of the campaign is a vast subterranean cavern. I'm talking big. Miles wide by miles long. It's pretty much it's own habitat, with mushroom forests, rivers of quicksilver, etc. The party needed to travel from one side to the other, and headed out. At regular pace. Like it was a normal stroll. What happened? They got surprised by two ankhegs, and in short order, the paladin was dropped and the sorcerer was at only a few HP remaining (they were a group of 4e level 5 PCs).

Lesson learned: Move slowly, and pay attention to your surroundings when in a hostile area, so you can make an actual perception check instead of relying on passive perception. Especially when the DM asks you more than once how you're moving

Yes, there is no downside to moving slow if there is no time pressure. How did you telegraph the threats such that the players should have taken meaningful action to give their characters a chance to spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something? Why do you suppose (or why did they say) they ignored your telegraphing?

2: Upon approaching and being welcomed into an orc encampment (the PC was 1/2 orc), the rogue parlayed with the orc chieftain for a while, and eventually a duel to prove the rogue's worth was imminent. He had to fight one of the elite orc guards. It was only subdual damage, and not to the death. I was thinking, "Man, the rogue is going to get pasted. It's not set to his advantage, since it's a straight arena fight and he can't take advantage of his stealth. The elite orc guard had chain mail and 2 great ax attacks, and had 40 hp. Against a level 5 rogue in an arena? Not good. So what did the player do? Threw out caltrops and basically kited the orc to death. Between cunning action, taunting the orc, and ranged attacks with the elite orc being reduced in movement, it took a long time, but I (as the elite orc) could never quite get close enough.

Point of context: The player is my 13 year old son who hasn't played a single MMO or video game where something like kiting would even be something he would have done. It was a new concept for him and he figured it out quickly. The first time when I just moved around the caltrops, he immediately went into taunt mode, causing the orc to rage and forget they were there on the next pass.

Lesson learned: thinking outside of the box will often save your bacon (ha! pun. orc = pig. pig = bacon. get it?

Good on him!

 

[Sacrosanct]

I basically asked them, and repeated, "Explain exactly how you are moving in your marching order. Pace? position?"


OH, lesson #3: Umber hulks are to be hated lol

 

[iserith]

I basically asked them, and repeated, "Explain exactly how you are moving in your marching order. Pace? position?"

So no fictional warnings like collapsed earthen tunnels, discarded molted chitin, a partially devoured cavern beast in a pool of acrid bile, or disconcerting tremors under the ground that might have encouraged the players to have their characters interact with the environment in a way that might call for a Wisdom (Perception) check? Just repeated questions about marching order and pace? If so, is that normally how you signal to your players that they should look around at their environment and they just failed to do it?

 

[Sacrosanct]

So no fictional warnings like collapsed earthen tunnels, discarded molted chitin, a partially devoured cavern beast in a pool of acrid bile, or disconcerting tremors under the ground that might have encouraged the players to have their characters interact with the environment in a way that might call for a Wisdom (Perception) check? Just repeated questions about marching order and pace? If so, is that normally how you signal to your players that they should look around at their environment and they just failed to do it?

Those were the questions I asked right when they left the town. I don't ask them that later on whenever an encounter is imminent (this was as random encounter as well) because that would be too obvious that something is about to happen. I want to get them to set the baseline for the rest of the day where I am assuming how they are moving until they tell me otherwise. If there are fictional warnings present, I do those as well as they become appropriate. They seemed to be OK with taking a leisurely pace like a stroll through the woods, which was not a good idea in the environment they were in. So I repeated my questions a few times, just to make sure. When a DM asks you several times, it typically is a hint that maybe you need to re-evaluate But oh well, their choice. And their consequence.

 

[iserith]

Those were the questions I asked right when they left the town. I don't ask them that later on whenever an encounter is imminent (this was as random encounter as well) because that would be too obvious that something is about to happen. I want to get them to set the baseline for the rest of the day where I am assuming how they are moving until they tell me otherwise. If there are fictional warnings present, I do those as well as they become appropriate. They seemed to be OK with taking a leisurely pace like a stroll through the woods, which was not a good idea in the environment they were in. So I repeated my questions a few times, just to make sure. When a DM asks you several times, it typically is a hint that maybe you need to re-evaluate But oh well, their choice. And their consequence.

Okay, thanks for explaining. It seems like it was "You're walking along and then ANKHEG!" with the DM checking for surprise and combat ensuing. Is that accurate? I'm interested in how other DMs do things.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Personally I'm not a fan of monsters spending their days hanging around bad ambush sites hoping that someone will come through. That's a good way to die of starvation. Making the players move at half pace overland all the time doesn't really do anything for the game except damage verisimilitude. Calling out landmarks and letting them make a decision is much easier, especially if you back it up with logic.

For instance the characters are forced to go through a narrow winding gorge, perfect ambush territory, and with a high level of traffic because everything is funneled through it. Sure, proceeding slowly will give them perception checks, but flat out sprinting might mean the local bandits never get into ambush position at all, while getting out the climbing gear and taking the high ground could allow the tables to be turned.

Players want to make meaningful decisions. Always travel overland slowly isn't a decision at all.

 

[KarinsDad]

1: Part of the campaign is a vast subterranean cavern. I'm talking big. Miles wide by miles long. It's pretty much it's own habitat, with mushroom forests, rivers of quicksilver, etc. The party needed to travel from one side to the other, and headed out. At regular pace. Like it was a normal stroll. What happened? They got surprised by two ankhegs, and in short order, the paladin was dropped and the sorcerer was at only a few HP remaining (they were a group of 4e level 5 PCs).

Lesson learned: Move slowly, and pay attention to your surroundings when in a hostile area, so you can make an actual perception check instead of relying on passive perception. Especially when the DM asks you more than once how you're moving

I'm curious how people play this type of scenario.

If the ankhegs are not hiding (and who would be hiding 24 hours a day?) and the PCs are not using stealth, then neither side should have any sort of advantage here. Why do the ankhegs get surprise?

Granted as DM, someone could state that the ankhegs are always hiding, but that seems a bit much.

Even if the ankhegs are in heavy obscurement without hiding, if they are not hiding, they are not hiding. They would move around and make noise at times, just like the PCs. They would clack their mandibles at times, just like the PCs talk at times.

The concept that group A moving into the territory of group B and because of that, group B is automatically hiding seems a bit weird. I can definitely see a DM saying both sides roll perception against the other side and if you beat their "passive stealth" (a concept that just is easier than passive perception against rolled stealth since neither side is really trying to stealth), then you get to go in the surprise round. That way, some PCs from group A might go on the surprise round and some ankhegs from group B might go on the surprise round.

This just seems to harken back to old style "the monsters always get surprise" scenarios that never made sense. It seems like a way to force feed the players a lesson in some cases.


Note: I am not saying that the OP played this wrong, I'm asking how DMs handle this type of situation, especially if group B is not explicitly trying to hide.

Note: There are cases of predators actually hiding like lions hiding in brush, waiting for prey to come along. And if that is the case with the ankhegs, fine. But, it just seems in my experience that DMs have monsters do this "predators hiding to surprise prey" happening almost all of the time, basically 24 hours a day which I kind of find weird. Why aren't the ankhegs doing the monster equivalent of snoozing in the shade some times? Why are they always alert and hiding? Why do the PCs never just stumble across snoozing monsters and the PCs get surprise (which is why I do a perception roll vs. "passive stealth" instead of the other way around, it allows for all 5 scenarios based on dice rolls, one side totally surprised, one side partially surprised, some from both sides surprised, the second side partially surprised, the second side totally surprised)?

Now if the one side is hiding, all bets are off. It's just normal passive perception vs. rolled stealth.

But why are the monsters the ones almost always getting the stealth rolls (or hiding) and the PCs the ones almost always getting passive perception? The monsters are always alert? The monsters are always hiding? The monsters are not just standing in a field at times, rooting around in the dirt looking for grubs or rodents?

The PHB mentions that if neither side is actually hiding, then neither side is surprised (which I find a bit problematic as well in some cases). I'm not sure why DMs feel the need to teach their players lessons like this.

 

[Schmoe]

I've always played Ankhegs specifically as ambush predators. There's no reason to infer anything more about encounters with other types of creatures from just this one example.

 

[iserith]

I'm curious how people play this type of scenario.

If the ankhegs are not hiding (and who would be hiding 24 hours a day?) and the PCs are not using stealth, then neither side should have any sort of advantage here. Why do the ankhegs get surprise?

Granted as DM, someone could state that the ankhegs are always hiding, but that seems a bit much.

Even if the ankhegs are in heavy obscurement without hiding, if they are not hiding, they are not hiding. They would move around and make noise at times, just like the PCs. They would clack their mandibles at times, just like the PCs talk at times.

As burrowing monsters, it's probably fair to say that the ground is providing them the fictional context to justify a Dexterity (Stealth) check to hide.

The concept that group A moving into the territory of group B and because of that, group B is automatically hiding seems a bit weird. I can definitely see a DM saying both sides roll perception against the other side and if you beat their "passive stealth" (a concept that just is easier than passive perception against rolled stealth since neither side is really trying to stealth), then you get to go in the surprise round. That way, some PCs from group A might go on the surprise round and some ankhegs from group B might go on the surprise round.

This just seems to harken back to old style "the monsters always get surprise" scenarios that never made sense. It seems like a way to force feed the players a lesson in some cases.

Note: I am not saying that the OP played this wrong, I'm asking how DMs handle this type of situation, especially if group B is not explicitly trying to hide.

Note: There are cases of predators actually hiding like lions hiding in brush, waiting for prey to come along. And if that is the case with the ankhegs, fine. But, it just seems in my experience that DMs have monsters do this "predators hiding to surprise prey" happening almost all of the time, basically 24 hours a day which I kind of find weird. Why aren't the ankhegs doing the monster equivalent of snoozing in the shade some times? Why are they always alert and hiding? Why do the PCs never just stumble across snoozing monsters and the PCs get surprise (which is why I do a perception roll vs. "passive stealth" instead of the other way around, it allows for all 5 scenarios based on dice rolls, one side totally surprised, one side partially surprised, some from both sides surprised, the second side partially surprised, the second side totally surprised)?

Now if the one side is hiding, all bets are off. It's just normal passive perception vs. rolled stealth.

But why are the monsters the ones almost always getting the stealth rolls (or hiding) and the PCs the ones almost always getting passive perception? The monsters are always alert? The monsters are always hiding? The monsters are not just standing in a field at times, rooting around in the dirt looking for grubs or rodents?

The PHB mentions that if neither side is actually hiding, then neither side is surprised (which I find a bit problematic as well in some cases). I'm not sure why DMs feel the need to teach their players lessons like this.

It is exceedingly easy to justify how and why a monster might be hiding and waiting in ambush, especially a "lurker in the earth" like an ankheg with its tremorsense and a party bumbling headlong into its territory at normal pace with feet pounding the ground all the way. Other monsters could similarly be given fictional justification to be in the position to surprise adventurers. Fiction is easy to come up with.

However, my position is that it is not a fair challenge (and is fake difficulty) when the DM fails to fictionally telegraph the threat in a way that provides an opportunity for the players to discern that there is some threat in the area and that caution is warranted.

As I mentioned above, I would have described collapsed earthen tunnels, a husk of molted chitin, a partially eaten orc in a puddle of acrid bile, or the like. This would encourage the players to engage with the exploration pillar of the game - check out the tunnels, the husk, the corpse - the investigation of which may allow them to make deductions about threats in the area based on what they learn (with or without ability checks depending on the uncertainty or certainty of their stated actions). Based on their findings, they might opt to be more cautious and slow their pace. Or they might ignore that telegraphing or make the wrong deductions and carry on. Or they might decide to haul ass away from the area.

The key thing here is that the DM created an opportunity to interact with the environment and for the players to make meaningful decisions about what to do. The ankhegs might still get the drop on the PCs even in this scenario depending on what the players say they want to do, but at least they had a chance to avoid or prepare for the danger. It turns a potential "gotcha" into a scene that builds the tension and allows for meaningful decisions.

Now, the OP seems to not do this (or at least not all the time as I would), relying upon meta communication (if you will) to warn players that they should be more cautious. The player skill then becomes reading your DM and taking action accordingly. That's fair enough if that's how they normally do things at that table. It's just not what I'd do.