D&D 5E An 18-year old's take on 5E

[Mercurius]

I thought I'd share an anecdote from a conversation I had with one of my students. Unlike many of us on this forum in our 30s and over who grew up with one version or another of AD&D, BECMI, or even back to OD&D, he's grown up in a D&D context of 3.5E, 4E, and Pathfinder - and has almost exclusively played Pathfinder. To put another way, and at the risk of making me feel old, he was three years old when 3E came out, eleven when 4E came out, and twelve when Pathfinder came out. Yesterday he approached me and asked what I thought of 5E; he had recently downloaded the Basic Rules. I told him I really liked it, that it combines many of the best elements of different editions in a streamlined and simpler game. He said a few very interesting things that I wanted to share:

One, he said that it solved problems that he didn't even know he had with Pathfinder until reading the 5E Basic Rules. We didn't go into detail about it, so I can't be more specific, but I found this very interesting - if only because it made me think about what it must have been like to learn the game through starting with 4E or Pathfinder.

Two, he said that he liked the "rulings not rules" paradigm, that this was new to him - the idea that the rules themselves are flexible and subject to the DM's (hopefully creative and wise) adjudication. I believe this was one of the problems in the point above. I found this particularly interesting because this was the paradigm that I was raised with back in the 80s.

Three, he liked the three pillars and how it really seems that 5E makes more room for the non-combat elements than Pathfinder and 4E did, making for a more diversified experience in which the narrative is the underlying thread. He said that 4E seemed like a board game to him.

Anyhow, it was refreshing to get his relatively unjaded perspective on D&D and 5E. I've tended to think that 5E appeals mainly to "old guys" such as myself that want a simpler game than the recent iterations, but one that includes many of their innovations and strengths, but it also seems that these elements are appealing to a younger generation as well. I hope this one example bodes well for 5E's future.

 

[Tormyr]

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Nebulous]

I would love to see what he thought of something like Dungeon World....

 

[Iosue]

I was recently watching the Critical Role Q&A, and was struck by how most of them had started with 3e, 4e, or PF. Even Matt Mercer only goes back as far as 2e. They had one guy who went back as far as AD&D 1e. It's similar with WotC live games; even the old timers go back as far as 2e. In addition to making me feel old, it really brings home the realization that I, having started with B/X and AD&D, simply see the game differently than a good chunk, if not the majority, of D&D players.

I don't know if that'll really change with 5e.

 

[doctorhook]

I would love to see what he thought of something like Dungeon World....

I've been gaming since 1999, and only recently discovered games like Dungeon World and FATE. I'm also very curious for the opinions of an even newer-n00b than I.

I was recently watching the Critical Role Q&A, and was struck by how most of them had started with 3e, 4e, or PF. Even Matt Mercer only goes back as far as 2e. They had one guy who went back as far as AD&D 1e. It's similar with WotC live games; even the old timers go back as far as 2e. In addition to making me feel old, it really brings home the realization that I, having started with B/X and AD&D, simply see the game differently than a good chunk, if not the majority, of D&D players.

I don't know if that'll really change with 5e.

True story. It's easy to forget how much the hobby has changed and grown since 3E was launched, and how much time has passed since then. ENWorld, despite its finger on the pulse of gaming news, still has a ton of the same people here that it had ten years ago; as a group, ENWorlders are an experience bunch. It's also easy to forget how many people discovered gaming through 3E and 4E (both of which were booms for attracting new players). And don't forget, we're talking about a post-World of Warcraft market--even WoW is already more than a decade old!

 

[Trickster Spirit]

I've been gaming since 1999, and only recently discovered games like Dungeon World and FATE. I'm also very curious for the opinions of an even newer-n00b than I.

I'm 25, and the DM of a self-taught group - none of us had ever played D&D until I ran our first game in Pathfinder, though I've since switched us to 5E (my group is all casual players, the character creation and feats were honestly a nightmare for us). So I can't provide a take on 5E through the lens of a player of 3.5 or 4E as Mercurius' student can, but I can share what it's like to enter the hobby relatively recently with a completely fresh slate.

I'm sure there are folks out there who received a set of core books as a gift, and that was their entry point into the hobby. But most folks who aren't connected to an existing group, but are still interested in getting into D&D, are going to do their homework first. Or, at least the ones who are going to stick with the hobby will. They're going to do their homework. They're going to Google what the hell a saving throw is, they're going to watch an Acquisitions Inc. video or two, they're going to binge read about classic modules in Wikipedia (I knew I wanted to run my players through GDQ1-7 a full year before we ever started playing. They're going to read about the different editions and look at reviews to decide on the ones they're going to play.

Now, I'm the odd one out in my group, since I'm the DM, and the only one who actively reads the boards / listens to actual play podcasts of other campaigns. I'd happily play in a game of Dungeon World or FATE. I actually really, really dig FATE, and if any of my players were interested, I'd DM a campaign in it in a heartbeat (either a Diaspora campaign using the FATE Core rules, or maybe a World of Darkness conversion). I've taken a look at Dungeon World, and will confess I just didn't grok it - that doesn't mean I'd turn down an invitation to someone else's campaign, but I wasn't able to wrap my head around it. In terms of my "D&D" style game, 5E is my jam.

My take on the "average" young newcomer to the hobby is this: D&D is king. Pathfinder is certainly on people's radar, but only inasmuch as they saw it at the store when they went in to buy D&D, and a quick Google search has informed them that it is "a kind of D&D" (I'm talking about self-forming groups here, of course, not newcomers attaching themselves to existing groups - Pathfinder's done very well in that arena). Any other game, folks haven't even heard of, unless they've joined a group that's had experience with it. Nothing else has managed to break out of the tabletop gamer bubble and into the larger nerd zeitgeist. Maybe World of Darkness did, once upon a time, but not today, at any rate.

 

[Nebulous]

I've been gaming since 1999, and only recently discovered games like Dungeon World and FATE. I'm also very curious for the opinions of an even newer-n00b than I.

Dungeon World is flat out amazing. Some things it does better than 5e (or any D&D) and some things D&D does better. There is some ideal, perfect synthesis hybrid in there but that's for the next generation of game designers to create

 

[Mercurius]

I was recently watching the Critical Role Q&A, and was struck by how most of them had started with 3e, 4e, or PF. Even Matt Mercer only goes back as far as 2e. They had one guy who went back as far as AD&D 1e. It's similar with WotC live games; even the old timers go back as far as 2e. In addition to making me feel old, it really brings home the realization that I, having started with B/X and AD&D, simply see the game differently than a good chunk, if not the majority, of D&D players.

I don't know if that'll really change with 5e.

The student I mentioned is but one person, and admittedly a rather extraordinary and imaginative one, but he gives me hope!

My take on the "average" young newcomer to the hobby is this: D&D is king. Pathfinder is certainly on people's radar, but only inasmuch as they saw it at the store when they went in to buy D&D, and a quick Google search has informed them that it is "a kind of D&D" (I'm talking about self-forming groups here, of course, not newcomers attaching themselves to existing groups - Pathfinder's done very well in that arena). Any other game, folks haven't even heard of, unless they've joined a group that's had experience with it. Nothing else has managed to break out of the tabletop gamer bubble and into the larger nerd zeitgeist. Maybe World of Darkness did, once upon a time, but not today, at any rate.

My take is a bit different. The school I work at is a small private high school. I've been there for about six years and have seen maybe around 30 kids playing RPGs. All of them played Pathfinder or 3.5, and many of them had dismissive attitudes towards 4E. There seemed to be a general view of starting with 3.5--possibly because they were taught by someone older--and then wanting to move on to Pathfinder.

I think that with 5E, D&De has a chance to regain the "throne." But it certainly hasn't held the throw for the last half decade or so. The sales numbers bear that out, at least over the last 3-4 years, and my sampling of two or three dozen teenagers support that view (although I imagine that there are "pockets" of Pathfinder/3.5 and 4E players, and I just happened to interact with a pocket of the former).

 

[Trickster Spirit]

My take is a bit different. The school I work at is a small private high school. I've been there for about six years and have seen maybe around 30 kids playing RPGs. All of them played Pathfinder or 3.5, and many of them had dismissive attitudes towards 4E. There seemed to be a general view of starting with 3.5--possibly because they were taught by someone older--and then wanting to move on to Pathfinder.

I think that with 5E, D&De has a chance to regain the "throne." But it certainly hasn't held the throw for the last half decade or so. The sales numbers bear that out, at least over the last 3-4 years, and my sampling of two or three dozen teenagers support that view (although I imagine that there are "pockets" of Pathfinder/3.5 and 4E players, and I just happened to interact with a pocket of the former).

Heh, I'd agree - in the sense I'm using it there, Pathfinder is D&D. So would most OSR clones / near-clones, I suppose, as I'm not talking trademark ownership here. To clarify my point a bit:

Suppose there's a game shop or book store with an RPG section, with three shelves dedicated to specific products: D&D (4E or 5E, doesn't matter for this example), Pathfinder, and a third, unrelated game - let's say, Trickster Spirit: The Exampling.

It doesn't matter how prominently they display TS:TE, or how many more TS:TE books they have than D&D or Pathfinder, or how cool those books look. Maybe there's a diehard TS:TE player base in this city, or a lot of parents choose TS:TE over the other two as gifts for their kids, and the store even sells more copies of TS:TE products overall. If you ran an exit poll of RPG customers at that store, 90% of the "I have never played or GMed a tabletop game before" crowd will be buying D&D or Pathfinder, because no one outside of the hobby has ever heard of TS:TE.

If you eliminate everyone who's been introduced to Pathfinder by other Pathfinder players, the only new folks who are going to pick Pathfinder over D&D itself are those who've done their homework and have decided Pathfinder is the version of D&D they want to play. Heck, I am just one such individual - when I had to decide which game to run for my group, I went with Pathfinder over 4E, despite having no loyalty to Paizo or the 3.5 ruleset. As an impartial observer of the edition wars, I found that Pathfinder was a better fit for my tastes than 4E was. That I like 5E more than I like Pathfinder now isn't really what I'm getting at - it's just that, in a vacuum with no contact with existing tabletop gamers, it's not Dungeon World and FATE attracting people to the hobby.

Course I'm already in the hobby now so if there's anyone in the Chicago area running a Dungeon World or FATE campaign, I'd totally bring pizza if you invited me to a session.

 

[Mercurius]

OK, I hear you and agree, [MENTION=6701829]Trickster Spirit[/MENTION]. I'm into watch collecting and the equivalent in the horological world to D&D is Rolex. If you ask 100 people on the street to name a watch brand, 90+ of them will say "Rolex" and the rest will say Casio, Timex, Seiko, Citizen, Omega, Tag Heuer, Patek Philippe, etc (and some smarmy techie will say "Apple"). But there are hundreds of watch companies out there, from one man shows to mega-corporations like Rolex.

Or we have Coke, Nike, Levi's, Kleenex, Xerox, Budweiser, etc. The list goes on. This is why people like Erik Mona of Pathfinder are happy 5E is doing well, because a healthy D&D = a healthy hobby.