D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[Sacrosanct]

I'd like to see more effort put into your guide, with your thoughts on each aspect of the wizard's class abilities at various levels, choices along the way, and each spell at the various levels. I'd like to see what situations you think of that are applicable, good and bad, to those abilities and options and spells. It takes effort I know, and time, but it's something I genuinely want to see. You're obviously under no obligation to provide it, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

I'm afraid you won't get that from me. I don't mean that to sound like a jerk or anything. I say it because my philosophy of gameplay is that PCs are rather personal to an individual player, and game tables have styles of play that run the gammut. There is no way I could come up with an entire guide about the best optimized combinations because it has no appeal to me to do so and is very much dependent on environmental factors you can't possibly predict. My philosophy is that first and foremost, players should play a character and all that comes with that (spell selection, attribute allocation, etc) to be unique what kind of PC that player envisions, and that is different from player to player. Sometimes much different. It doesn't do me much good to say this is a great combination of spells/abilities when that player might be in an environment where none of those are relevant.

That's why I am vague in my responses, because the game can cover millions of different scenarios that all have an impact to how I personally would build my character and what spells I would learn. The thing is, is that I don't know what those are until I play the game. It's the same reason I almost never plan out my PC for several levels ahead, let alone all the way up to level 20. The choices I make from level to level are entirely based on what has actually happened in the game so far.

That's why I don't spend a lot of time coming up with guides. I'd much rather spend my time creating adventures, new monsters/concepts, and campaign settings.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Except use gate. That is a very high level ability.

32 wolves killed by one fireball or AoE attack. I like what the druid can do. Is 32 wolves better than 32 mephitis with temporary hit points if that route was followed? How many wolves could an army of mephitis kill? Access to gate is a huge deal too.

Meh, Gate is not impressive to me. Too expensive. I'd rather have six semi-permanent Invisible Stalkers or Air/Earth Elementals (1000 gp each) than a 50% chance at a Goristro (6000 gp and a CHA save by the Goristro to acquire one; I'm just calling it 50% for simplicity but the chance of success obviously varies based on things like whether or not you Bestow Curse the Goristro before binding it, whether you have a wild sorc helping you, etc.).

You can't get 32 Mephits. Max is 24.

Good luck killing 32 wolves with one Fireball. Did you houserule Fireball to have a hundred-yard radius or are you just assuming they're glued together in a giant ball of fur? Meteor Swarm would work though, or multiple Fireballs.

RE: high-level clerics as summoners, all they've got is Conjure Celestial (and presumably Conjure Fiend if you infer that spell's existence). With a 9th level spell slot, they can get a CR 5 Celestial. Couatls are nice for utility, but otherwise Celestials are pretty meh. With a 9th level spell slot, druids can get a CR 9 Fey via Conjure Fey. In either case you're probably going to have to make up new Celestials/Fey to summon, but the raw CR suggests that the druids are probably going to get better allies via summoning.

 

[TheGogmagog]

I don't get why people think Fog Cloud is good, Silent Image makes it almost completely redundant. And the best part is, people can't touch fog anyway, making it almost impossible to disbelieve.

I was going to 'correct' you that a fog cloud isn't "an object or a creature" but looked up wording to see "or some other visible phenomenon"
An orderless thick black smoke cloud would be difficult to 'interact with', so should save you from it being dismissed with a free action wave of the hand, saved as part of a move action, or even suffering disadvantage with the first attack made in it. The only way to save against it would be to spend an _action_ investigating it.

They could move out of the range, but then....
"You can use your action to cause the image to move to any spot within range."

I'm also wondering if it were cast over the only window, would it block all light from entering the room from the window?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I will take a second look at Planar Binding. I found the wording very vague and that bothered me, as a DM will scrutinize a spell like this one. If you take a look at any of my past wizard guides, I've certainly praised the value of a planar bound creature, the very first guide I ever wrote was my Guide to the Malconvoker, a PrC that specialized in summoning and planar binding. I think you are also limited by the significant reduction in summon options in 5e too though.

Your guide asks "Where do you get the creature to bind?" It's simple, it comes from another spell. (Planar Binding even addresses how it extends that spell's duration.) Just overcast Conjure Elemental at 8th/9th level to get a souped-up elemental (DM will have to create something) and then bind that. Or Conjure Celestial (Couatl) or Conjure Fey or Gate, as discussed above.

On a different note: another error I noticed in your guide is that you seem to think Imprisonment costs you the material component. "Target an 18th level Wizard for example and you need to pay 9000gp to cast this spell one time – and it provides a saving throw to avoid the effect (but you still lose your 9000gp)." That's not correct--you keep the material component because it doesn't say it's consumed. It looks like you have the same misconception with Circle of Death. "This is a kaboom spell that does the same damage as a 3rd level fireball on average. The damage is necrotic and the save is Constitution. It’s just awful. Wait, I forgot the 500gp material component." It's a 500 gp one-time cost for a 60' radius spell. Not fantastic but good at killing large numbers of weakish things. It doesn't deserve the opprobium you pile on it, although if it cost you 500gp per casting it would.

Comment on Magic Jar: you recommend having an ally "throw the gem into a roomful of enemies." Magic Jar in 5E isn't so good at taking down large numbers of enemies any more, because of that whole "if you die in someone else's body, you're dead in real life" thing. (Yes, you get a save, but it's a nonproficient dump-stat save against your own spell DC. You're not going to make that save very often.) It's more of a replacement for old-style Dominate Person: possess the crown prince to do shenanigans over the course of days. It is possible to use this spell in combat still, either because you're Death Warded or because you have a Clone set up, but it's no longer possible to use it to just chew through disposable bodies any more. In short, if there's a "room full of enemies", Magic Jar will be a risky bet compared to Fireball/etc.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

When I said "I must be missing the joke", that wasn't meant to be sarcasm; I meant it literally. I must have missed the joke. And from your explanation of his history, it looks like I did. Not everyone knows who he is, or his style he's known for, so when that person runs across a guide that basically is "you're doing it wrong and you're a waste of space", you can't blame them for taking it at face value.

I don't hang out on 3e forums and don't play it, so I have no idea who he is. So when I read it, I immediately had flashbacks to WoW, because all those condescending statements and insults in his guide were word for word statements made in WoW all the time, and in complete seriousness. So that's the context I was reading it in.

Tongue is firmly planted to cheek, pretty much permanently.

Seriously though, the term "waste of space" is absolutely not targeted at the player or the reader. It's targeted at a fictional character. I wouldn't even call a real person a "waste of space" as a joke.

Finally, I should clarify that I in no way expect people to play Wizards the way I do. The guide is to show how I play wizards and why. The guide is intended to make you think about a concept I find fun, and either take something from it or reject it at your leisure. You will see in the comments here that lots of people disagree with my opinions, and I think it's clear from my responses that I'll debate them, but am appreciative of the criticism.

If I thought the responses I would get would be, "Your guide agrees with all my personal opinions on the class and spells" it would be pointless.

 

[Celtavian]

Meh, Gate is not impressive to me. Too expensive. I'd rather have six semi-permanent Invisible Stalkers or Air/Earth Elementals (1000 gp each) than a 50% chance at a Goristro (6000 gp and a CHA save by the Goristro to acquire one; I'm just calling it 50% for simplicity but the chance of success obviously varies based on things like whether or not you Bestow Curse the Goristro before binding it, whether you have a wild sorc helping you, etc.).

The 5000 gold diamond is not consumed. Only a one time cost. How about a Yugoloth? Most of them don't have save bonuses other than their ability.

Hmm. I read the Stalker entry again. I can bind some stalkers and use them to kill over and over again. I'm going to have get a few at some point.

You can't get 32 Mephits. Max is 24.

24 mephitis might still better than 32 wolves. Mephits are more versatile.

Good luck killing 32 wolves with one Fireball. Did you houserule Fireball to have a hundred-yard radius or are you just assuming they're glued together in a giant ball of fur? Meteor Swarm would work though, or multiple Fireballs.

Hmm. Wolves use pack tactics and are likely to group together in a very tight group to attack as a pack. Even if I don't get all 32, getting 15 to 20 is not unheard of. Wolves don't fly and don't have no ranged attacks. At higher level a lot of enemies can avoid ground attacks from creatures like wolves.

RE: high-level clerics as summoners, all they've got is Conjure Celestial (and presumably Conjure Fiend if you infer that spell's existence). With a 9th level spell slot, they can get a CR 5 Celestial. Couatls are nice for utility, but otherwise Celestials are pretty meh. With a 9th level spell slot, druids can get a CR 9 Fey via Conjure Fey. In either case you're probably going to have to make up new Celestials/Fey to summon, but the raw CR suggests that the druids are probably going to get better allies via summoning.

Did you forget about planar ally? This spell can't be dispelled either. No concentration.

A couatl is pretty nice. Would it be a hard sell to allow a neutral or evil cleric to summon fiends? I allow it. Fiends and celestials are more powerful than fey, elementals, or animals. I'm expecting far more options with fiends and celestials as more books release.

I'm always considering the higher levels. I can expect to reach level 12 plus in the majority of our campaigns. We pound pretty fast through the lower levels. I look at what a class is capable at level 15 plus to see how it would do. I feel the higher level summoning options for clerics offer more versatility than wizards or druids due to the power and versatility of fiends and celestials.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The 5000 gold diamond is not consumed. Only a one time cost. How about a Yugoloth? Most of them don't have save bonuses other than their ability.

Whoops! You're right, I misread. That radically changes my evaluation of Gate. You're right, wizards are therefore better summoners than druids.

Mephits vs. wolves: in my experience, Mephits aren't actually impressive. They have maybe a third of the damage output of wolves due to no advantage and roughly half the damage per attack. Also lower mobility. They are superior meat shields but inferior weapons. (I'm not saying they're bad, or even worse than wolves, I'm just pointing out pros and cons.)

Wolf vs. Fireball: I try to keep all of my forces dispersed as much as possible on the assumption that 5E AoE effects are common but short-ranged. If I had 32 wolves, I'd likely operate them in two packs of 16, each of which is split into two groups of 8. On any given turn, one group attacks and then pulls back (enduring one opportunity attack, possibly at disadvantage due to prone) while the other rushes in. Ergo, 16 attacks at advantage for 7 points of damage per hit plus proning, with a roughly forty foot separation between groups (wolf movement = 40'). You'll probably hit 10 of them with a Fireball, which is an acceptable loss fraction. And yeah, wolves aren't useful against flying enemies but then again neither are mephits, usually (too slow to catch up).

Planar Ally: every time I read that spell, the thing that jumps out at me is that it is prohibitively expensive. 1000 gp per hour (10,000 per day) and a full share of XP? No, thank you.

 

[Celtavian]

Whoops! You're right, I misread. That radically changes my evaluation of Gate. You're right, wizards are therefore better summoners than druids.

Mephits vs. wolves: in my experience, Mephits aren't actually impressive. They have maybe a third of the damage output of wolves due to no advantage and roughly half the damage per attack. Also lower mobility. They are superior meat shields but inferior weapons. (I'm not saying they're bad, or even worse than wolves, I'm just pointing out pros and cons.)

Planar Ally: every time I read that spell, the thing that jumps out at me is that it is prohibitively expensive. 1000 gp per hour? No, thank you.

It's only a hundred gold per minute. You can find time to summon one in a Leomund's Tiny Hut or just being outside a place. They do take a share of xp. They require a DM friendly to negotiation.

What else you going to do with all that gold? You can't guy magic items in general. If your DM lets you spend gold on something better, I can see the problem. If not, then spending on a powerful celestial or fiend isn't a bad expenditure of coin.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

It's only a hundred gold per minute. You can find time to summon one in a Leomund's Tiny Hut or just being outside a place. They do take a share of xp. They require a DM friendly to negotiation.

What else you going to do with all that gold? You can't guy magic items in general. If your DM lets you spend gold on something better, I can see the problem. If not, then spending on a powerful celestial or fiend isn't a bad expenditure of coin.

Oh I see, you're thinking of very short-term uses, like "help me for two minutes to kill this beholder, without taking up my concentration." Yeah, that could be cost-effective. I was thinking of it as a rival to Planar Binding but the way you describe it is closer to Animate Objects usage. Not a bad usage. And not a bad gig for the fiend/celestial either: client provides transportation to and from, work isn't too hazardous, you get a share of XP, and also make 100 gp per minute. As a PC, I'd sign up as a Planar Ally any time.

 

[Celtavian]

Oh I see, you're thinking of very short-term uses, like "help me for two minutes to kill this beholder, without taking up my concentration." Yeah, that could be cost-effective. I was thinking of it as a rival to Planar Binding but the way you describe it is closer to Animate Objects usage. Not a bad usage. And not a bad gig for the fiend/celestial either: client provides transportation to and from, work isn't too hazardous, you get a share of XP, and also make 100 gp per minute. As a PC, I'd sign up as a Planar Ally any time.

Exactly. A couple hundred gold for two minutes work or a thousand gold for an hour. That might be a few encounters or an assault on a fortress.

I don't know if you read the entry on devils and demons, but they can't die on the material plane even if you summon them using gate or planar ally. There is no distinction between summon and calling. They have no fear of death. The only action that might considered suicidal by them would be to attack a creature that could put its existence on its home plan at risk. You call some bestial planar ally. He rips things up without regard for his existence. Even if it dies, it reforms on its home plan and goes about its business. I figure I can get a lot of discounts summoning fiends. A lot of the things they kill are going to the Abyss or Hell anyway. If I find out the particular creature worships a rival in the Abyss or Hells, I can use that as part of the deal. If you're fighting demon worshippers, summon a devil and vice versa. Lots of good role-play in negotiations with fiends and celestials.