Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

[Ovinomancer]

And here is precisely where we seem to differ. You appear to be casting a rather wide net, in the belief that people use the term "Islamophobia" as an anti intellectual means of shutting down any criticism of Islam as a whole. My position is that it's a method of shutting down anti intellectual sentiment that all who profess to follow Islam must, therefore, be terrorists. The latter appears to be the way that the lines are being drawn, politically, in my experience and observation.

It was used that way in this thread. :shrug:

If you want to limit it to the example you gave, I've no problem with the word being used there. Do you think that's how the word is generally used in discourse today? I don't. I see it used more the way I describe than as an accurate description. I've no issue with it being used when it actually applies.

 

[Kramodlog]

To defend the freedom of women oppressed by Islam, brave protesters have been advance voting with potato bags on there head. Freeeeeeedumb!

 

[Ryujin]

It was used that way in this thread. :shrug:

If you want to limit it to the example you gave, I've no problem with the word being used there. Do you think that's how the word is generally used in discourse today? I don't. I see it used more the way I describe than as an accurate description. I've no issue with it being used when it actually applies.

Yes, that's how I generally hear it being used. There are always outliers who will abuse a term but, by and large, it is used to refer to people who irrationally tar all followers of Islam with a wide brush.

 

[Sadras]

Again with the broad generalization... Next thing you'll tell me is that Buddhists couldn't arm a fly

When one speaks about the influence of Christians in Western media and politics, you're saying one was not being general? Or about their effect on same sex marriage or abortions - was it all Christians that were against it or just some? And what was wrong with my comment regarding the topic of apostacy in Islam - all I said was that the other religions don't quite have the same view. How is that generalising? In the new testament there is something 'similar' - not in terms of violence or punishment being called for, but in terms of damnation and an act being unforgivable - when one blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.

Islamophobes exagerate the actual political and mediatic power Muslims have in Western countries in general*. They perceive Muslims as far more influencial than they are.

They managed to build an MUSLIM centre near ground zero. That reflects two things to me - America is not as Christian influenced as you like to paint, and Muslims have far more influence that you give them credit for.

EDIT: Changed the word ISLAMIST to MUSLIM. Didn't know there was a difference until [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]'s post.

For lumping radical Muslims with non radical ones.

How am I lumping them together, when they (the Muslim World) is not acknowledging their atrocities? Why are you defending their inaction? Are you so hell bent against Christianity that you would like to see its followers persecuted all over the world?

What?

What was the last Christian movie made? How much was its gross earnings? For a Christian country I suppose it made a lot of money with all those bad Christian Republicans who went to see it?

Not going to argue against the myth that Christianity is under assault, it would be obviously pointless here, but I'll do say that there is a difference between pushing up and pushing down when critiquing groups. In federations like the US or Canada, Christians are the majority. Critiquing them is pushing up. Up because they are on top of the social order. Critiquing them often means critiquing their power and/or abuse of power. Pushing down, means pushing on minorities who are often not in power and/or discriminated upon, so it can adds to their burden.

It is also easier to critic groups we are part of. In part because we are familiar with that group, but also because we can be directly affected by some belief of our group since it is in power. Critiquing a minority who's culture we aren't familiar with might lead to critiquing stuff that doesn't exist or isn't wide spread, but result in real stigma to the minority.

That is fair.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They managed to build an Islamist centre near ground zero.

Not EVEN close to the truth.

Feisal Abdul Rauf is the Imam who built that mosque. He is definitely NOT an Islamist.

He is a Sufi, the most liberal of the major sects of Islam, and whose members are often oppressed by radicalized Sunni and Shia Muslims.

He has criticized the 9/11 attacks, suicide bombings, and Middle-eastern church burnings as non-Islamic.

He is a member of the Council of 100 Leaders (C-100) on West-Islamic World Dialogue at the World Economic Forum (WEF) and has received both the Alliance for International Conflict Prevention and Resolution’s annual Alliance Peacebuilder Award and The Interfaith Center of New York’s annual James Parks Morton Interfaith Award (2006).

He supports the continued existence of Israel and is pro-American, anti-theocracy (pro-seperation of church & state), pro-democracy, and pro-gender equality.

He has served Bush in the Middle East in 2007, and aided the FBI in training agents dealing with Muslims.

He has performed interfaith marriages, has spoken forcefully and repeatedly against anti-Semitism, and has been a major part of many international interfaith councils.

 

[Sadras]

Not EVEN close to the truth.

Feisal Abdul Rauf is the Imam who built that mosque. He is definitely NOT an Islamist.

My bad. I didn't realise the word ISLAMIST meant the extremist kind of Muslim. Believed it was another word for Muslim.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Fair enough.

 

[trappedslider]

Why religion still matters very interesting read

 

[Kramodlog]

And what was wrong with my comment regarding the topic of apostacy in Islam - all I said was that the other religions don't quite have the same view.

There are differences in interpretation and application. This is why saying Islam has a problem with apostacy is a broad generalization.

Lumping Russia, Uganda, Ireland, the US, France and Denmark together wouldn't brush an accurate picture of how Christians treat homosexuals, now would it? Why should Muslims be held to another standard?

They managed to build an MUSLIM centre near ground zero.

It is the US. People and groups can buy land and build/renovate stuff on them if they respect zoning laws and other restrictions. If being able to buy land and build stuff on it is a sign of influence, I'll say your standard is way too low. At least when it comes to the US.

To be sure, are we talking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51 ?

That reflects two things to me - America is not as Christian influenced as you like to paint,

Because other religions can renovate a building to host a museum and a prayer room on US land!? How influencial do you think I said they were?

and Muslims have far more influence that you give them credit for.

Again, cause a building was bought and renovated? Because they managed to resist an islamophobic campaign? Notice that I never said they had zero influence either, but having some influence doesn't mean you have congress in your back pocket, can get what ever you want or you're as influencial as other religious lobbies.

How am I lumping them together

Well, by saying stuff like:

(the Muslim World)

Why are you defending their inaction?

Quote me defending it.

Are you so hell bent against Christianity

Quote me saying I was against Christianity.

that you would like to see its followers persecuted all over the world?

Funny. I say Muslims aren't as influencial in Western countries as islamophobes would like to think and for you that means I want Christians of the world to be persecuted by Muslims. You don't see how ridiculus you sound?

What was the last Christian movie made? How much was its gross earnings? For a Christian country I suppose it made a lot of money with all those bad Christian Republicans who went to see it?

I like how you add "bad Christian Republicans" to this as if I said such words. It really helps to strenghten your argument. I also didn't call the US a Christian country, althought I agree that it can be construed in various ways and the way you use it might not mean what I think it means.

But if we take your logic about movies to be an indicator of influence of a religious group, shouldn't you compare Christian films and their box office made in the US to the Muslims ones?

 

[Umbran]

But if we take your logic about movies to be an indicator of influence of a religious group, shouldn't you compare Christian films and their box office made in the US to the Muslims ones?

That could be difficult, given the issue with idolatry.