D&D 5E Eliminating darkvision from most races

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First Post
I'm an anti-houserules guy and I see no problem with removing darkvision or reducing its utility, or instituting low light vision.

It may alter the calculus that goes into choosing a race. I know that darkvision is a contributing factor when I choose a race for a new character. You may see an increase in the incidence of human PCs, particularly variant humans if you use feats.
 

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S

Sunseeker

Guest
Which leads back to the original complaint. If you have to play, say, an all-Dwarf team, most people would probably feel that to be... off somehow: too powergamey. And so the equilibrium works: having darkvision isn't that great, because somebody will be playing a human, say.
It leads one to wonder if dwarves are ever challenged by anything in the dark. I mean, half the time the party is in a dungeon is because some long-lost tribe of dwarves built it.

Things in tunnels aren't threatening because you can't see them. Yeah, okay it's scary to not know what lurks in the shadows, but knowing what lurks in the shadows can be twice as scary because now you're in a 5' wide hallway with only a smattering of side-rooms, made like corridors leading off in any given direction to who knows where (or to worse places). Freddy Krueger is scary sure. But what's scarier is not being able to get away, moreso than the fact that he's a psychopathic nighmare demon come to life. I mean, if he was a psychopathic nightmare demon who came to life...2000 miles away, who cares?

The reason that horror flicks with mazes are scary is because you don't have control over where you go. You go down the corner because there's no option. You dive into the room because there's no option. You run into a dead end? Well, it's called that for a reason.

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@OP: yeah I agree that there's a certain amount of ambiance lost because so many base races have darkvision. But there's a certain degree of "it's more than just being unseen" that makes a situation scary. Sure, the unknown is scary. But so is being able to see the demonic runes written in the blood of virgins splattered across the walls while screams that you're never able to reach echo down the halls. Seeing the glowing eyes at the end of the hallway dart away as soon as you make contact. These things are scary too.

Not knowing is more of a meta device. I can let my players see the world just fine and still surprise the heck out of them.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
I'd say the biggest problem is that it makes sneaky rogues basically impossible UNLESS you also remove darkvision from most NPCs.

My thoughts would be to ensure that most civilized NPCs don't have darkvision at all unless it's supposed to be a headline feature of the race, meaning that any civilized settlement will be lit.

FWIW, only some underdark races would qualify. I'm not sure that drow would.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I'd say the biggest problem is that it makes sneaky rogues basically impossible UNLESS you also remove darkvision from most NPCs.
How do you figure that? (Assuming the sneaky rogue has darkvision of course)

The only thing darkvision does is to turn darkness into (dim) light. You can still hide even in lighted conditions, assuming there are plenty of cracks, crevices and stalagmites to hide in/behind.

What aspect of the NPC do you feel is changed compared to a human (non-darkvision) guard posted in a city, forest fort or similar during poor (dim) lighting conditions?
 


I've been toying with some nerfing of darkvision for a while. This thread has prompted me to review this for my next campaign and I've come up with this...

  • Halflings and Humans have no darkvision [no change]
  • Dwarves and Tieflings have darkvision to 60 feet [no change]
  • Gnomes and Half-orcs have darkvision to 30 feet [range halved]
  • Dragonborn and Elves have darkvision to 30 feet; it does not work in complete darkness (such as in a cave, dungeon, the Underdark, or at night when the sky is blanketed by cloud) [for Elves, range halved; depends on there being some ambient light. New bonus feature for Dragonborn, who need a lift anyway.]
  • Half-elves have darkvision to 15 feet; it does not work in complete darkness (such as in a cave, dungeon, the Underdark, or at night when the sky is blanketed by cloud) [range quartered; depends on there being some ambient light]
This does not significantly change the balance for any race, except possibly Half-elves, which could gain an extra language in compensation.
 
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Gardens & Goblins

First Post
Personally it seems to me that Dark Vision is the norm, and those without it are the special cases - for our table at least, it at least gives folks pause for thought before choosing V.human, especially for the stealthy/shadowy characters.

We also have materials that a not visible via Dark Vision, and mundane devices that can blind those with it. To be honest, a general rule for suddenly transitioning from darkness to light, which effects Dark Vision users, is something I've been toying with. Heck, perhaps those without Dark Vision should be effected by such a thing - and those with Dark Vision more so (..at least, within the confines of our campaign.)
 

D

dco

Guest
Put some traps in the dungeon or secret doors, passive perception -5 with darkvision, at some point players will learn to use lights. Enemies can also have the same advantage players get from darkness.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
To clarify a bit, there are specifically two things that I feel are lost with widely prevalent racial darkvision:

1. The ambiance of storytelling as a DM when the characters venture into some ancient, lost, deep dungeon that is pitch black. Sure we can still say that the characters only see in grays, or that they can only see 60' out. But that's still enough for them to be comfortable in a dark space. The slight mystery and horror of an ancient dungeon filled with who-knows-what that I want to bring to the story is impacted if they can see everything in grays. I want them to have to pierce the veil of darkness with the effort of pulling out a torch and lighting it as the cavern drips with moisture in the distance, or have the wizard perform an arcane ritual to lighten the space,

2. The utility of spells, tools, and items that can help them deal with the darkness is reduced or lost. How many times do your players worry about bringing torches with them? How often do wizards worry about learning light spells? How often do your characters hope to find goggles of night or a potion that allows them to see in the dark? With so much racial darkvision around everywhere, almost never.

To me, darkness is one of the hazards (and storytelling elements) of the dungeon. Prevalent racial darkvision almost makes it a nonissue.

I get what you're saying, and it's cool to have those moments of total darkness, where everything is pitch black and you literally can't see anything. But beyond those moments, where you pull out the torch, it's really not that different. And in the context of D&D, it's very reasonable to have liberal use of darkness because for underdark dwelling creatures (like the drow that have it natively), that's the method for putting their enemies in the dark.

If your darkvision characters aren't using torches, lantern, and spells, then you aren't using the disadvantages of range and Perception enough. Underdark creatures almost always have better darkvision than surface dwellers. Which means that you are always a target for an ambush, and one that is not broken by an attack. Every attack against a surface dweller by an intelligent underdark race with superior darkvision should be ranged attacks from 90-100', and then constant retreating to stay that distance from their target. Their attacks are with advantage, and the PCs are not only with disadvantage, but also with the chance of missing if they aren't targeting the right location. The most effective way of countering this is a bullseye lantern. Any other light source available to the party (except dancing lights which can be used once they are attacked) doesn't have the range necessary.

How many people would be comfortable walking around at late twilight, where the range of your effective vision is about 60', whether it's in the wilderness or a city street with no lights? Now tell them that monsters are real. It's not a nonissue at all. The only thing you lack is a natural source of total darkness, and you have magical means to handle that.

My baseline for what the PCs notice is their passive Perception, and with a -5 across the board there, it's a big deal. Consider that beyond their 60' range that the DC for noticing anything goes up considerably, because they are dependent solely on sound then. And sound in a dark, underground passage is notoriously unreliable.

Sure, they aren't in total darkness before they light their torch, but it's still a vital tool. Resource management disappeared as soon as continual light (now continual flame) became available. Once the wizard performs their arcane ritual once, the darkness is forever banished, and more effectively than darkvision.

But the storytelling aspect of darkness isn't generally total darkness, dim light, or bright light. It's about what is beyond the range of your vision. And that's easy to play up whether it's 6" or 60'.

Depending on how restrictive you want to be, you can take a cue from earlier editions and rule that darkvision isn't effective when within the radius of a bright light. So your continual flame allows you to see clearly for 20' and dim light for another 20' but that's the extent of it, regardless of whether a PC has darkvision or not. All you need is one human to require it.

Even in AD&D, the only race other than humans that didn't have darkvision (infravision at the time) were halflings. Stout halflings had it, and mixed-blood halflings had it to 30', but other halfling sub-races did not. So this isn't a new thing at all. More importantly, infravision could be more problematic (depending on how you decided it worked), since warm-blooded creatures were more visible in the dark.

Really, what altered the problems with darkvision was a change in the way races and classes worked. In AD&D days, the majority of PCs (and people) were assumed to be human. Not everybody played that way, of course, but it was considered the standard. Now it seems that most people want to play something other than human. But like I said, all you need is one human to mess up everybody else's darkvision.
 

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