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D&D 5E When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?

It's all about which you find cooler: brute force or skill.
Sure, but there's also a line to be drawn somewhere between "skilled" and "cheap". An opponent who battles through skill, rather than brute force, can still be cool. It's much more difficult for an opponent to be cool when they're so weak that they're forced to resort to cheap tricks.

YMMV on where that line is drawn, of course.
 
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Sure, but there's also a line to be drawn somewhere between "skilled" and "cheap". An opponent who battles through skill, rather than brute force, can still be cool. It's much more difficult for an opponent to be cool when they're so weak that they're forced to resort to cheap tricks.

Well, Strahd isn't at that level of weakness. He doesn't need cheap tricks, but he is well-equipped with terrifying and deadly-effective tricks. He's doesn't have the brute force to dismantle the PCs + Mordenkainen in broad daylight at high noon, but IMO it would be kind of lame if he did because that cheapens the vampire mystique. They're supposed to be schemers and liars and treachers and dangerous sneaks, not dumb armored battleships.

When it comes to Strahd, I find brute force uncool. Giving Strahd the Tarrasque's stats and intelligence would be just awful.
 

When it comes to Strahd, I find brute force uncool. Giving Strahd the Tarrasque's stats and intelligence would be just awful.
Have you seen the Tarrasque in action, in this edition? I think that's about where I would want a legendary vampire to be, in terms of strength and resilience. Probably swap out the reflective carapace for spellcasting and other vampire abilities.

That's not to say that I think Strahd should be as strong as the Tarrasque. I just think everything is in this edition is significantly weaker than it should be to live up to its reputation. If Strahd had Strength 30, then the Tarrasque should have Strength 50. As it stands, the thing is barely even a challenge for a group of four or five level 20 characters.
 


Uchawi

First Post
5e is all about bounded accuracy. Does that make monsters easier to kill? Obviously the answer is yes. Can the DM compensate? Obviously the answer is yes. Does 5E provide the building blocks to build in complexity by using a mechanic like CR? The answer is no, because monster CR is all over the board. It is the latter part that bugs me the most in regards to having to do all the work as a DM to make monster interesting. In my opinion, that is the price you pay when the design focus is simplicity. The way I dealt with it in the past is play a more complex game. If I had my druthers I would like a game that was between 5E and Pathfinder.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Why not simply accept that the stat block isn't good enough?
Because my party, which feels "regular" to me and it is insulting if you are insisting they are "carebear", doesn't absolutely demolish Strahd as written, even when I'm not "burning braincells" while DMing, whatever that means (because I assume you aren't using that phrase to mean "putting any thought at all into what you are doing.")

Basically, you are asking some of us why we don't simply accept that you know better than us what is or isn't "good enough."
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
If I had my druthers I would like a game that was between 5E and Pathfinder.
I can understand this.

But my point is that you need only to go 5% towards PF levels of complexity to iron out the worst deficiencies in 5E, which isn't enough to make people stop playing - mostly because they will not even notice until they are well and truly hooked (and by that time much more experienced, and thus less sensitive to the occasional tricky monster ability).

As Sacrosanct pointed out above; I'm probably at 20% PF complexity* myself, but again; that much's not needed to fix the overall feeling of "weak unsophisticated high level monster design".

*) I consider PF insanely complex, and 20% is a very high figure in my view. But he's right, I probably number among those 5E forum ENWorld posters with the highest acceptance for crunch
 

Just wow...
Strahd is terror and refinement incarnate. He is not an armored battleship. Strahd uses cunning, intellect and charisma to get what he wants. Brute force is for the weak minded. Sometimes it is necessary to use some, that is what minions are for.

Strahd will target the weakest party member. He will charm, he will harass the party. He will wear them down. He will lure the heavy away from his target with illusion or lead them into deadly traps (of which the castle has a few).

The stat block of a monster is not the end of it. It is only the begining. Some monsters are as you want them, mindless brutes. Others needs skills and deviousness to be played to their full potential. Strahd is one of them. He was in the chapel but he led the party on a wild goose chase. I slew the wizard and while they were battling him, gargoyles stole the body. Then it was the cleric's turn and so on. Was it fair? Hell no! But Strahd is not fair. He plays by his rules alone. If you let such a character get into the party's trap, you play him poorly.

Through my play, Strahd enforced the 6 to 8 encounter per day on the little group. They died as they did not know how to manage ressources. They were young but I showed them that RPG are a thinking man's games. Not a mindless hack and slash fest. Now the young DM is putting more time in preparation and reads his MM with a lot more attention than before. He learned and his players did too.

If you play the game as it should be. You'll find that the game is well balanced, even if you use every single options in the book. It just take a bit more preps than you might be used to.
 

Isn't that the point, though? You shouldn't need or want to play him like Strahd, if playing him like Strahd means that he slinks around in the shadows and only attacks when you're trying to sleep. Because an enemy who does that is lame, and not awesome, and we want Strahd to appear awesome.
Strahd has already done the awesome "I'm going to face you down, toy with you and laugh off your puny attempts" earlier in the adventure. Generally by the time of the final confrontation, the party will have discovered his secrets, hold weapons that are a very real threat to him, and be a high enough level to take him on.
That's the point where Strahd stops toying with the party and starts hunting them. The point at which the party experiences the leader who has held his nation in thrall for centuries and the general who led armies to victory. To just have him stand in a room next to the guy emitting sunlight and soak up radiant-damage attacks while punching people would, to my mind, deprive the players of an integral part of the module. The cat-and-snake game as the party searches the castle trying to confront Strahd and destroy him for good while he whittles them down with his minions, trying to take the sword away from them, prevents them from resting etc.

Do you regard vampires as dark and terrible predators of the night; cunning and vicious with weaknesses that must be exploited to destroy them? Or as nigh-indestructible thugmonsters?
Strahd is the former. If you wanted an adventure with a BBEG who was the latter, CoS isn't it.
Its like complaining that the MM Ogre statblock doesn't bear out their role as rooftop burglary and infiltration experts.

I recall this same conversation going on, with dragons, a while back - how a big red dragon can't even burn down a small city, because the archers will kill it before it can even kill a hundred peasants, with the counter being that the dragon is way too smart to ever attack a city head-on.
Possibly. I'm not sure how many archers a small city could field, how many of them would be in range to attack the dragon at any one time, or the flammability of the city.

This still does not change the basic fact that a regular party (not superminmaxed but not carebear either) absolutely demolishes Strahd as written, and how disappoint this is.
I'm going to have to say that you're incorrect there, unless you're making some major assumptions about state of said party. Particularly their remaining resources, whether they had to fight their way through the castle to find him, and how many of Stradh's minions they are having to fight as well as him.

You can argue "play Strahd like Strahd" however long you wish. This still does not change that a monster needs to be judged on what is in the statblock.
Statblocks aren't just AC and HP. Statblocks include Int and Wis scores, Legendary and Lair actions.

A DM should not need to burn braincells just to keep the BBEG alive long enough for a climactic end battle.
Burn? no. Use? Yes.

I'm convinced you're simply making stuff up in order to avoid having to concede the Strahd statblock was way too weak)
That is a rather unpleasant accusation. Care to back it up with how my experience of fighting Strahd in his castle indicated that his statblock was too weak?

Which gets us to the bottom line. Why not simply accept that the stat block isn't good enough?
Because my experience and evaluation does not bear that conclusion out.
I'm quite willing to accept that you personally believe that Strahd's statblock isn't good enough, and that there are several others who think the same. They're entitled to their opinions.

Whether you compensate by laborious tactics or by changed stats isn't the most important issue. You compensate. Which is less good than not having to compensate. Where running devious tactics is a luxury you can afford to spice up your game instead of *having* to do it. Where you don't *have* to change the stat block... unless you want to make the fight even more tricky.
Where is the line between 'playing Strahd as he is written in the adventure' and 'laborious tactics', 'compensation' etc.
Running devious tactics isn't a luxury, its Strahd's baseline of how the book seems to suggest he is played.
Its assumed that a DM will have and apply a level of gamesmastery roughly equivalent to that of their players I think. That's probably a good guideline. If there is a large disparity either way, then some adjustment isn't unreasonable I believe.

Let's first agree SOMETHING needs to be done about how the WotC designers seemingly fail to take regular parties into account, like they wrote the adventure using playtest rules or something.
No, I do not think that we can agree on that. I can accept that you have an opinion that differs from mine, and that you have anecdotal experiences that are the reason that you have those opinions. However my evaluations and experience do not support your base assumption and thus I do not agree with your proposal to correct it.
 

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