Yet another Solos fix: "Solo actions"

[pemerton]

your example from Night's Far Reach, the encounter is extremely significant to the plot, its the establishing event for a lot of what can happen beyond that IIRC. I'm not super familiar with the module, but certainly it isn't just some sort of "you were going down the river, this obnoxious crap happened, now survive" kind of thing. There are actual goals.

I can't remember all the details of how I ran it (8 years ago). On the other hand, the fact that I can remember it at all I think is a good sign, in terms of the play experience that we had!

I'm pretty sure that I would have made it clear - through symbols, NPCs pronouncements, whatever - that these were Bane cultists, because that would have engaged at least one or two PC directly. Plus there is the the question of "Why are they trying to stop us, what's going on here, etc?" And then there is the practicality of "They're trying to swarm our boat and kill us, so we better defend ourselves!"

Contrast this with room 3 of a run of (IIRC) 7 rooms full of hobgoblins in KoTS which you engage with for no other more meaningful reason than "these guys are in the way". They don't offer any choices beyond the most basic tactical 'how do I kill this?' nor do they add to the story, etc. This type of encounter should simply not exist. If you feel it MUST exist for 'color' then wrap several of them together, add some minions, and make it spread over the whole 7 rooms. At least it might not be utterly static...

I think the last thing I mentioned - ie the PCs need to stop themselves being killed by attacking cultists - is probably the biggest difference between the Night's Dark Terror encounter and hobgoblin room number 3 of 7. That latter set up seems basically static, and the hobgoblins (as you describe it; I don't know the module well at all) seem basically to be an obstacle, rather than a threat. Where's the action? (Answer: missing in action.)

 

[Tony Vargas]

Contrast this with room 3 of a run of (IIRC) 7 rooms full of hobgoblins in KoTS which you engage with for no other more meaningful reason than "these guys are in the way". They don't offer any choices beyond the most basic tactical 'how do I kill this?' nor do they add to the story, etc. This type of encounter should simply not exist.

hobgoblin room number 3 of 7. That latter set up seems basically static, and the hobgoblins (as you describe it; I don't know the module well at all) seem basically to be an obstacle, rather than a threat. Where's the action? (Answer: missing in action.)

Oddly enough, I remember some of the 'hobgoblin room' encounters from playing KotSf. There was one with a goblin hexer's whose vexing cloud lived up to it's name in combination with hobgoblin soldiers in a phallanx. There was a room with a well that I shoved a hobgoblin into. There was the hobgoblin torturer the rogue slid into an iron maiden...

Oh, yeah, it was all just the product of "tactically how do we kill these things?"
Still memorable - especially in that only one memorable moment was because someone cast a spell....

 

[Rolenet]

Oh, yeah, it was all just the product of "tactically how do we kill these things?"
Still memorable - especially in that only one memorable moment was because someone cast a spell....

But see? That's my point! Not fantastic, but cool enough. Cooler than the same plain hobgoblin wave using 3.5 or AD&D, no?
Yeah, maybe I've lowered my expectation over the year, I don't know....

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION], [MENTION=6874615]Rolenet[/MENTION]:

I don't necessarily disagree - but 4e makes it so easy to adjudicate all thw wackier stuff (terrain, pushing people down wells or off earthmotes, etc); and the "rally" narrative makes it so easy to push the players hard with waves of assailants, ambushers etc (without just stumbling blindly into TPKs) - that I would say, "why not go that extra step?"

 

[Tony Vargas]

But see? That's my point! Not fantastic, but cool enough. Cooler than the same plain hobgoblin wave using 3.5 or AD&D, no?

The same plain hobgoblin? Yes, certainly. The leveled-up multi-classed optimized hobgoblin the DM spent 6 hrs on, OTOH, could probably have managed to be cool for a few rounds.

Though it was the PCs being cool in ways they probably couldn't have been in 3.5, too.

Yeah, maybe I've lowered my expectation over the year, I don't know....

Lowered expectations are key.

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION], [MENTION=6874615]Rolenet[/MENTION]:

I don't necessarily disagree - but 4e makes it so easy to adjudicate all thw wackier stuff (terrain, pushing people down wells or off earthmotes, etc); and the "rally" narrative makes it so easy to push the players hard with waves of assailants, ambushers etc (without just stumbling blindly into TPKs) - that I would say, "why not go that extra step?"

What extra step? All that happened, even in KotSf, contender (albeit in a crowded field) for 'worst module ever.'

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@Tony Vargas, @Rolenet:

I don't necessarily disagree - but 4e makes it so easy to adjudicate all thw wackier stuff (terrain, pushing people down wells or off earthmotes, etc); and the "rally" narrative makes it so easy to push the players hard with waves of assailants, ambushers etc (without just stumbling blindly into TPKs) - that I would say, "why not go that extra step?"

Right! And beyond that, this type of encounter in AD&D would be 20 minutes at the table, tops. Yet it will eat 30-40 at least in 4e for most groups, and 1 hour for many. Its a matter of how to productively spend your time. People say '4e has no time for plot', but that's only true if you play this sort of stuff where there's no plot INSIDE the encounters.

Think about it this way. DMG1 is telling you to go right to the action, and the action in 4e is organized into encounters. How CAN their be plot in 4e, as written, unless it happens inside encounters??!!!! I mean, sure, you can have interludes of some sort, and SCs can contain anything, but even as-written 4e envisages 2-3 combat encounters per SC. CLEARLY something like KotS is missing the boat with its long runs of simple encounters.

And yes, those simple encounters each illustrated one basic combat tactic. In one you could push guys, in another there was an obscuring zone, there's a table you can jump on in another, etc. Still each room was basically fairly limited in size and had one tactical element and one or two monster shticks. That would be OK if there was something dynamic or plot-critical to the encounter! These just fell short.

I mean, it was the very first 4e adventure (maybe besides Kobold Hall) ever written. We could be nicer to it MAYBE. Still, Kobold Hall was basically the same concept, but mercifully compressed into about 5 encounters!

 

[Rolenet]

But you know, guys, you've actually convinced me. While a basic D&D4 fight is nice, an "advanced" one is nicer.

I'm still not too sure how you manage to pull off such prepration for enough encounters on a weekly basis - knowing that often you have to prepare extra encounters AND extra options just in case -. But I promise I will try it out!


(I need not specify that I've managed to pass on DMing tasks for the next couple years...)

Hey, wasn't this thread about Solos? How did we end up there?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I mean, it was the very first 4e adventure (maybe besides Kobold Hall) ever written. We could be nicer to it MAYBE.

That was as nice as I'm ever going to be to KotSf.

I'm still not too sure how you manage to pull off such prepration for enough encounters on a weekly basis - knowing that often you have to prepare extra encounters AND extra options just in case -.

I don't.
I'd prep an encounter before the session I planned to use it in more often in 4e than in any other edition (or game, really), because it was so easy to do so, but I'm still a compulsive improviser when I GM.

Hey, wasn't this thread about Solos? How did we end up there?

Short hop from Solos to encounter design to DMing techniques to how much KotSf sucked (and how even it couldn't completely ruin a 4e play experience).

 

[Rolenet]

Short hop from Solos to encounter design to DMing techniques to how much KotSf sucked (and how even it couldn't completely ruin a 4e play experience).

But I'm new here. Is there a rule that a thread has to come down to how much KotSf sucks? I have a copy down in the basement I bought for the maps, I should read it and prepare a few snarky comments. Does it grant gold coins? (Gods, what are those for?)

 

[Garthanos]

but even as-written 4e envisages 2-3 combat encounters per SC.

I might guess 2 SC per combat encounter feels more natural to my players, although I do not always make SC explicit like most DMs seem to.