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D&D 5E Crawford on Stealth

That tie ruling is a bit strange. I usually go by the 5e rules for ties "On a tie, nothing happens". So if a creature hasn't notice you and you try to hide from it, a tie means it still hasn't noticed you. But if the creature already knows you are there and you try to hide from it then, a tie should mean that you are still not hidden from that creature. Likewise when the creature is actively rolling perception because it is actively searching for you, then a tie should mean you stay hidden.
 

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Arial Black

Adventurer
This is all correct, but the thing that makes you hidden at that point is not how high you roll on your DEX (Stealth) check. The thing that makes you hidden is the DM's determination that circumstances are appropriate for hiding and your action declaration to stay out of sight and stay quiet. The result of your DEX (Stealth) check then determines whether you are noticed or not, when compared to a creature's WIS (Perception) check.

Absolutely not!

Although you do need to be un-observed in order to attempt to hide (turning invisible, moving behind the tree), this just allows you to try to hide; it does not mean you succeeded! They know where you are, and they can attack you with disadvantage for not seeing you, because even though you are not visible you are not hidden until you:-

* take the Hide Action In Combat (because we are talking about when we are in combat here)
* succeed in a contest between your Stealth and the observer's Perception

In case you think I'm pulling this out of my backside:-

PHB p192 said:
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide...If you succeed, you gain certain benefits

The way you run it, any attempt to hide automatically makes you hidden and then observers have to make you un-hidden. This is contrary to the 5E rules which say you are un-hidden (even if you cannot be seen) until you successfully hide.

p194; Unseen Attackers and Targets said:
Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly. When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

The rules differentiate between 'unseen' and 'hidden' (both unseen AND unheard). In order to become hidden you must first be unseen (as easy as walking behind a tree or casting invisibility) and then TRY to become hidden (Stealth/Perception contest). Therefore, before the attempt to hide you are invisible but you are not hidden. Your attempt to hide is an attempt to change from being 'un-hidden' to 'hidden', and a tied contest leaves the situation unchanged which means you are still un-hidden.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Those who fail to spot something because their passive Perception is not high enough can still roll a check, and they may roll high enough. Passive Perception does not interfere with that.
This response sounds like you didn't even read what you quoted.

Autosuccess on DC 17 checks is the problem here; replying by just serving the company line helps noone.

Thanks

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
Autosuccess on DC 17 checks is the problem here

Why?

It's not a problem for me. Quite the opposite.

Let's face it, if your passive perception is, say, 19 and your Perception modifier is +9, the you 'auto-succeed' on DC 10 checks. The principle of 'auto-success' is already part of the system.

So it can't be that which is bothering you about a passive Perception of 17 since passive perception is not what brought 'auto-success' to the game.

The only other thing is the '17' part. Why is that a problem for you?
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Why?

It's not a problem for me. Quite the opposite.

Let's face it, if your passive perception is, say, 19 and your Perception modifier is +9, the you 'auto-succeed' on DC 10 checks. The principle of 'auto-success' is already part of the system.

So it can't be that which is bothering you about a passive Perception of 17 since passive perception is not what brought 'auto-success' to the game.

The only other thing is the '17' part. Why is that a problem for you?
Please stop talking about me.

I was telling you your response reads as if you ignored everything you quoted. Bacon Bits makes a post about how every "make a DC 17 Perception check to find..." could just as easily have been removed from the game, since it is so easy to create a character who automatically makes every DC 17 Perception check using passive Perception. And then he goes on to show how increasing the DC brings other problems.

If you quote somebody, you're expected to acknowledge what he wrote.

So instead of just parroting off some basic truth about how skill checks work, how about actually addressing his example case and the fact he find this problematic?

If your opinion is that you're fine with maybe nine out of ten listed "make a Perception check to find..." in published modules are essentially useless, in sharp contrast to every edition before 5e, please say so. That way, we might not agree, but at least we know you read his post :)
 

schnee

First Post
I don't know. It may be an edition of D&D you imagined or made up yourself, but it isn't 5e. Maybe you wouldn't find the 5e hiding rules so odd if you were more familiar with them. I'm not sure why there's a need for some to comment on things with which they're unfamiliar, but it's a phenomena I encounter all too frequently.

There is absolutely no need for that kind of snark when someone is asking a question.

This is a discussion, not a competition, and good discussions meander a bit.

Cool your jets, dude.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
Although you do need to be un-observed in order to attempt to hide (turning invisible, moving behind the tree), this just allows you to try to hide; it does not mean you succeeded! They know where you are, and they can attack you with disadvantage for not seeing you,

Hold on a minute! At that point, you've already run the contest and the hiding creature failed to meet or exceed the observers' passive Perceptions! What we're talking about is the condition before the contest has been resolved.

because even though you are not visible you are not hidden until you:-

* take the Hide Action In Combat (because we are talking about when we are in combat here)

Correct!

* succeed in a contest between your Stealth and the observer's Perception

Wrong! You can become hidden even when no one looks for you!

The way you run it, any attempt to hide automatically makes you hidden and then observers have to make you un-hidden. This is contrary to the 5E rules which say you are un-hidden (even if you cannot be seen) until you successfully hide.

They don't say that. The 5e rules say if you are unnoticed you can attempt to remain unnoticed. If you are currently being noticed, on the other hand, circumstances are inappropriate for you to attempt to hide. You need to do something to escape notice first, like stay quiet and out of sight.

The rules differentiate between 'unseen' and 'hidden' (both unseen AND unheard). In order to become hidden you must first be unseen (as easy as walking behind a tree or casting invisibility) and then TRY to become hidden (Stealth/Perception contest).

The contest is more than your attempt to hide. It is also a particular creature's attempt to find you. I think you keep leaving that part out for a reason.

Therefore, before the attempt to hide you are invisible but you are not hidden.

I agree, but you need to keep in mind that the attempt to hide is the DEX (Stealth) check, not the entire contest, and that the resolution of the contest answers the question of whether you are noticed. If you were already being noticed, there would be no need for a contest.

Your attempt to hide is an attempt to change from being 'un-hidden' to 'hidden', and a tied contest leaves the situation unchanged which means you are still un-hidden.

The first part of the above statement is correct. The second part does not accord with Jeremy Crawford's tweet. I'm sure you know that he's the person who wrote these rules. Why you choose to ignore him is beyond me.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
There is absolutely no need for that kind of snark when someone is asking a question.

This is a discussion, not a competition, and good discussions meander a bit.

Cool your jets, dude.

Are you a mod?

I didn't think so.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
The 5e rules say if you are unnoticed you can attempt to remain unnoticed. If you are currently being noticed, on the other hand, circumstances are inappropriate for you to attempt to hide. You need to do something to escape notice first, like stay quiet and out of sight.

You're mixing up 'noticed'. You are making 'un-noticed' = 'un-observed', but rules-wise 'un-noticed' = 'hidden'.

You have to be un-observed in order to attempt to hide (whether there are current witnesses or not). But before you successfully hide then, although 'un-observed' you are not 'un-noticed', because you can be heard, signs of your presence are un-concealed from senses other than sight. JC talks about bumping into things, creatures being aware that an invisible creature has struck them, and so on.

In the situation we're discussing, the rogue is in combat with the enemy. The enemy can see him. The rogue is currently being observed. He is not hidden.

The rogue wants to hide. He will have to take the Hide Action In Combat (because being in combat means he needs to take actions to do stuff), but he is not allowed to take the Hide action while he is being observed.

So the rogue has to do something to become un-observed. Note that being 'un-observed' is not the same thing as 'un-noticed' in 5E. The rogue can become invisible if he has the means, or he could move behind the big packing crate in the middle of the warehouse floor, which takes him out of the direct line of sight of his enemies.

Now he is 'un-observed', but not yet 'un-noticed'. The enemy watched him move behind the crate, they know he is there, they can hear his feet scuff the floor, hear his weapons and armour creak in their harnesses, whatever fluff reason you want to use to explain that he is not yet hidden.

The rogue's un-observed but un-hidden status still provides meaningful benefits: the benefits of being invisible with regards to his enemy, at least until they or he moves back into line of sight. But he is not 'hidden'. He is still 'noticed'.

If he wants to become 'hidden' (and 'un-noticed') then while he remains un-observed he must take the Hide Action In Combat. He needs to make a Stealth check, and this single check is opposed by each enemy separately; he becomes hidden with regard to those enemies whose Perception check he beat but remains un-hidden to those whose Perception checks exceeded his Stealth.

The crucial part here is at the moment these contests are rolled that the rogue is trying to change from being 'un-hidden' to 'hidden'. Therefore, any tie means that his situation remains unchanged regarding that enemy; he remains 'un-hidden'. In this scenario, the tie effectively goes to Perception.

This would not be the case if the rogue was already hidden when the enemy started looking for him. Imagine the rogue runs into the warehouse a few seconds before the enemy and moves behind the crates and takes the Hide action. He rolls a Stealth check. Then, when the enemy run into the warehouse and look for the rogue, they must take the Search action and make Perception checks. Those whose checks beat the rogue's Stealth 'notice' his presence even if he remains out of their line of sight. Those who fail to match the Stealth roll do not notice him; he is 'hidden' with regard to them.

But if the Perception roll ties with the Stealth roll, as always the situation remains unchanged. In this case the rogue is 'hidden' when the enemy enter the warehouse, so he remains hidden on a tie. In this case, the tie effectively goes to Stealth.

In regard to JC's comments, when using 'natural language' we all tend to talk about 'who beats who'. We rarely talk about ties because it's a mouthful to say "equals or exceeds" every single time. JC wasn't commenting on what to do in a tie.
 


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