Beowulf Malign Warlord

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ever heard of getting into the groove? If an activity takes a certain mind set it may take a bit of time to adjust. For instance play a series of games of chess with me and you will see the phenomena each game I get progressively better .... wait a while then play me again.

That getting in the groove, may not be a universal but I play for the tropes
"Heroes arise to the need" or as is "when the going gets tough the tough get going"

... ie the battle heating up with more intense moves playing out later is a fantasy battle flavor...

You can call it gamist I call it literary or synching very nicely with well established fictional tropes.

Well, I don't reject it outright. I just thought things like the 13a escalation die was a bit hokey. I mean, 4e actually does it pretty awesomely with the whole balance of hit points and power selections between monsters and PCs kind of naturally leading to a sort of back-and-forth. Admittedly, if you don't pay some attention to encounter design then you're likely to get some instances of sloggy endings, which I'm all for eliminating by design. I just feel like escalation dice are a kind of lazy designer's way out.

In terms of other timing things, like 'combo mechanics', there CAN clearly be narrative basis for them, magic can explain anything, and even martial 'not explicitly magical' moves could exist that are intentional combos and might work semi-reliably. 'wind ups' (where a character gets a bonus for doing X before Y, or for repeating X several times) I found a bit less believable and thematic in general. I mean, sure, they can exist too, but I'm not a huge fan of basing a class purely on that or something like that.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, I don't reject it outright. I just thought things like the 13a escalation die was a bit hokey. I mean, 4e actually does it pretty awesomely with the whole balance of hit points and power selections between monsters and PCs kind of naturally leading to a sort of back-and-forth. Admittedly, if you don't pay some attention to encounter design then you're likely to get some instances of sloggy endings, which I'm all for eliminating by design. I just feel like escalation dice are a kind of lazy designer's way out.

or its elegant but at a simplicity level below your current preference?

I think 4e has some nice bloodied mechanics that draw off of this... but those tend to be character specific and not across the board not sure it couldn't use more. Personally I lie my idea of desperation powers so that running out of powers has a back up plan other than slogging

In terms of other timing things, like 'combo mechanics', there CAN clearly be narrative basis for them, magic can explain anything, and even martial 'not explicitly magical' moves could exist that are intentional combos and might work semi-reliably. 'wind ups' (where a character gets a bonus for doing X before Y, or for repeating X several times) I found a bit less believable and thematic in general. I mean, sure, they can exist too, but I'm not a huge fan of basing a class purely on that or something like that.

Not that familiar with 13A so the combo mechanics reference just makes me ???

 

[Tony Vargas]

Not that familiar with 13A so the combo mechanics reference just makes me ???

Not from 13A AFAIK.

One thing about the escalation die is that it's very firmly in the set of mechanics that affirm the PCs are the heroes of the story, rather than simulate a setting in which heroic fantasy stories could happen, just probably not to your characters.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

or its elegant but at a simplicity level below your current preference?

I think 4e has some nice bloodied mechanics that draw off of this... but those tend to be character specific and not across the board not sure it couldn't use more. Personally I lie my idea of desperation powers so that running out of powers has a back up plan other than slogging

Eh, I am always an advocate for simplicity, though not as an end in and of itself. It isn't the simplicity of the Escalation Die, its just how it doesn't connect with anything specific in the narrative. There's no REASON for it. You can of course come up with some explanations, but they tend to wear thin when you consider it happens in every fight. So, I'd be perfectly happy to have an 'escalation mechanic' that could be invoked as the mechanical manifestation of some aspect of narrative reality in the game.

I think it would be interesting to have a bloodied aspect for every class. Some might get stronger, some meaner, some cannier, whatever. I like that idea a lot more than escalation dice.

Desperation powers? I'm thinking we probably talked about this but somehow I didn't add it to my list of ideas to steal, so I must have forgotten to take notes!

Not that familiar with 13A so the combo mechanics reference just makes me ???

Oh, I don't think 13a is particularly doing this, just there are games that have, and a few times even 4e has had a thing or two. I don't actually hate it, just it can be overdone. Plus I sort of feel like maybe the players should work out those tactics themselves instead it just being a mechanically spelled-out thing. I know there are arguments for that though.

 

[Garthanos]

Eh
I think it would be interesting to have a bloodied aspect for every class. Some might get stronger, some meaner, some cannier, whatever. I like that idea a lot more than escalation dice.

Sure bloodied is about be pressed in the battle (or having the enemy in a more pressed state... enemies that arent awesome dragon types or staged bad asses might collapse under pressure too) . Its a little more binary even if explicit.

Desperation powers? I'm thinking we probably talked about this but somehow I didn't add it to my list of ideas to steal, so I must have forgotten to take notes!

yup you failed note taker you!! -- > I was thinking such powers would be wilder and less predictable at least flavor wise than the characters normal abilities.

The idea of gaining augmentation by prep actions ie multi-round climactic effeccts I think are somewhat interesting in their own right for the tactical choices of accepting delay or after effects those mechanics pretty much act like combos or complex actions.
however
The combos players create unless they are explicitly improvised with environmental/situational components tend to be locked down by them feat costs and the like and become the cause of fake character versatility anyway.... ie your one trick.

 

[Garthanos]

There are feats that do things like when all your encounter powers are expended gain benefits to at-wills which has some of the mechanical theme of desperation powers... but not quite

 

[Tony Vargas]

Eh, I am always an advocate for simplicity, though not as an end in and of itself. It isn't the simplicity of the Escalation Die, its just how it doesn't connect with anything specific in the narrative. There's no REASON for it.

I guess it's a bit ironic. The reason isn't /in/ the narrative, it /is/ the narrative. Specifically, that it's an heroic fantasy narrative is the reason for having such a mechanic. Heroes aren't the guys who always stride in and dominate, they're the ones who often (far too often to be plausible) come back from the brink. Mechanics like 4e minor-action healing, buffs on bloodied allies (and /enemies/ with encounter powers) or 13A rallies & the escalation die help model such narratives. Player-managed resources, like daily spells or encounter powers, OTOH, tend to fly in the face of it. The escalation die actually helps with that, as it discourages novas (at least of limited-use abilities that'd benefit from the escalation die bonus).

As for rationalizations, I suppose there's no end to them. As a combat progresses, the heroes see through the villains initial tricks, or the villains become overconfident or their energies flag, while the heroes never give up...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I guess it's a bit ironic. The reason isn't /in/ the narrative, it /is/ the narrative. Specifically, that it's an heroic fantasy narrative is the reason for having such a mechanic. Heroes aren't the guys who always stride in and dominate, they're the ones who often (far too often to be plausible) come back from the brink. Mechanics like 4e minor-action healing, buffs on bloodied allies (and /enemies/ with encounter powers) or 13A rallies & the escalation die help model such narratives. Player-managed resources, like daily spells or encounter powers, OTOH, tend to fly in the face of it. The escalation die actually helps with that, as it discourages novas (at least of limited-use abilities that'd benefit from the escalation die bonus).

As for rationalizations, I suppose there's no end to them. As a combat progresses, the heroes see through the villains initial tricks, or the villains become overconfident or their energies flag, while the heroes never give up...

Oh, I hear what you're saying. OTOH, in HoML at least, I am more relying on things like traits and Inspiration (a bit different than the 5e version, but with some similarities). So, you can create some sort of trait, like 'Always comes through in a tough situation' and then leverage it by spending a surge when you have Inspiration to gain a benefit that is narratively covered by that trait. I like that better. Obviously not everyone is going to have a 'dig deeper' trait, but my process is to just give players a chance to define 3 traits for their character, a strength, a weakness, and a 'quirk' (which can basically be anything they want). These are entirely open-ended, and the player is perfectly welcome to, for instance, create a 'weakness' that is useful to them, etc. They are also allowed to reverse leverage these traits to gain Inspiration, so you could have a trait like 'trick knee' that you could accept disadvantage in a check from to gain Inspiration, and then you could even spend it by invoking the same trick knee to explain how you stumbled instead of setting off that poison arrow trap.

Anyway, point is, they can definitely be a resource for digging in and pulling something out (and you can also leverage things like backgrounds and whatnot if you can come up with some logic for it). Seems that players OFTEN use it as a way to dig for a bit extra, and it definitely complements things like 2nd wind and minor action heals, etc. I like that you can produce a wider range of results than just "everything gets easier to hit", which is kinda old after a while.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There are feats that do things like when all your encounter powers are expended gain benefits to at-wills which has some of the mechanical theme of desperation powers... but not quite

Yeah, I want to add a bunch of boons like this to my game as well. Maybe I can key them onto stuff like Inspiration. Gotta think about that...

 

[Garthanos]

As for rationalizations, I suppose there's no end to them. As a combat progresses, the heroes see through the villains initial tricks, or the villains become overconfident or their energies flag, while the heroes never give up...

Yes the why this occurs seems obvious and very much part of the stories as I said its been generalized and simplified and could be enumerated but that is just a desire for a higher detail level.

I like the idea of making more use of it... ie powers later in the fight might get a bonus specific to them like this power gets one more target if used after 3... and that power over there gives an increased radius if during 4