D&D 5E Buffing the Champion Fighter

[Sacrosanct]

Provide the exact quote

I'm not going to go digging for an exact quote that 99% of people already know. The whole point of the champion fighter was to give those who wanted a basic fighter with not only less moving parts, but less parts in general.

Overall DPR doesn't increase meaningfully if you use the lower pdr weapon 1 in 50 encounters. If your DM is putting more flying enemies than that without prior warning then he's trash because he's gimping classes with no warning. An extra feat does not increase dpr, just makes varied attack styles have mlre competitive dpr


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This makes no sense at all. That's not how math works, and it's not a trash DM to have scenarios where a GWF might have to do something other than attack with his GW. Those scenarios happen all of the time. You also keep moving the goalposts, going from "zero effect" to "meaningful effect" and back and forth. But putting that aside, extra fighting styles and feats can and does increase DPR. If 75% of your attacks have a DPR of 20, and 25% of your attacks have a DPR of 8 (for an average DPR of 17), and you get those extra styles and feats that bump that up to 20, then 100% of your attacks will have a DPR of 20. This isn't rocket science or hard math here.

Oh, and Jeff? If you have me on your ignore (I don't know why you can still see my posts, but whatever), and quote me, I can't see what you're quoting. Only that I get a notification.

 

[droid6689]

I'm not going to go digging for an exact quote that 99% of people already know. The whole point of the champion fighter was to give those who wanted a basic fighter with not only less moving parts, but less parts in general.



This makes no sense at all. That's not how math works, and it's not a trash DM to have scenarios where a GWF might have to do something other than attack with his GW. Those scenarios happen all of the time. You also keep moving the goalposts, going from "zero effect" to "meaningful effect" and back and forth. But putting that aside, extra fighting styles and feats can and does increase DPR. If 75% of your attacks have a DPR of 20, and 25% of your attacks have a DPR of 8 (for an average DPR of 17), and you get those extra styles and feats that bump that up to 20, then 100% of your attacks will have a DPR of 20. This isn't rocket science or hard math here.

Oh, and Jeff? If you have me on your ignore (I don't know why you can still see my posts, but whatever), and quote me, I can't see what you're quoting. Only that I get a notification.

So you admit you don't know the quote.

And increasing dpr for one encounter out of 50 is not a meaningful increase. Obviously the dpr increases in situations where you cannot use your true dpr but those situations are very few and generally mean your DM is favoring casters intentionally

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[Sacrosanct]

You know what? There were a few red flags that I saw and I went against my better judgment and posted anyway. I won't make that mistake again.

Good day.

 

[droid6689]

Lol. Ok buddy. Thanks for helping me understand the fix is good. Appreciate it

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[Lord Twig]

Skipped a lot of the discussion, but for my house rules I left Remarkable Athlete alone, but also give the Champion Expertise at level 7 in addition.

Still trying to figure out a ribbon ability to give them at level 3.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So you admit you don't know the quote.

There are myriad quoted quotes on the topic, none of them actually came right out and promised to restore LFQW and caster supremacy, but 'simple fighter,' certainly got bandied about a lot.

 

[Xeviat]

Skipped a lot of the discussion, but for my house rules I left Remarkable Athlete alone, but also give the Champion Expertise at level 7 in addition.

Still trying to figure out a ribbon ability to give them at level 3.

I wonder if moving remarkable Athlete to 3rd and doing something else at 7th would be good? If remarkable Athlete stacked with proficiency, but not expertise, it would be a useful ribbon for exploration. Other fighter Archetypes get a ribbon at 3rd, but 7th is more damage.

It's not about making the Champion more complex to suit tastes; it's about making it more balanced. Someone could play a really simple battle master that only uses their maneuver dice for repost and parry and it would be functionally stronger than the Champion until about level 10.

And that's the tough part about balancing the Champion; they're okay at 10th and higher when they have something (Extra AC from defense) to differentiate them. Boosting their crit range might make them deal too much damage at higher levels when they have 3 attacks.


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[droid6689]

I wonder if moving remarkable Athlete to 3rd and doing something else at 7th would be good? If remarkable Athlete stacked with proficiency, but not expertise, it would be a useful ribbon for exploration. Other fighter Archetypes get a ribbon at 3rd, but 7th is more damage.

It's not about making the Champion more complex to suit tastes; it's about making it more balanced. Someone could play a really simple battle master that only uses their maneuver dice for repost and parry and it would be functionally stronger than the Champion until about level 10.

And that's the tough part about balancing the Champion; they're okay at 10th and higher when they have something (Extra AC from defense) to differentiate them. Boosting their crit range might make them deal too much damage at higher levels when they have 3 attacks.


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This is what I was thinking. Higher crit range likely pushes dpr too high. Higher crit range early would break multiclassing.

I definitely like the idea of giving champions all PHB fighting styles for "Additional Fighting Style" because
A) It simplifies the class
B) It doesn't make any specific build really any stronger
C) It follows the flavor
D) It gives the Champion a more unique trait

I also like giving them an extra ASI won't really make any build more viable but it can allow for interesting stuff like adding mobility, inspiring leader, or just resilient



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[Xeviat]

This is what I was thinking. Higher crit range likely pushes dpr too high. Higher crit range early would break multiclassing.

I definitely like the idea of giving champions all PHB fighting styles for "Additional Fighting Style" because
A) It simplifies the class
B) It doesn't make any specific build really any stronger
C) It follows the flavor
D) It gives the Champion a more unique trait

I also like giving them an extra ASI won't really make any build more viable but it can allow for interesting stuff like adding mobility, inspiring leader, or just resilient



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An extra ASI already doesn't do too much more at that level. The Fighter is able to max Str/Dex and Con rather early. If it's a truly simple character, they won't be taking feats after.


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[Lord Twig]

I wonder if moving remarkable Athlete to 3rd and doing something else at 7th would be good? If remarkable Athlete stacked with proficiency, but not expertise, it would be a useful ribbon for exploration. Other fighter Archetypes get a ribbon at 3rd, but 7th is more damage.

It's not about making the Champion more complex to suit tastes; it's about making it more balanced. Someone could play a really simple battle master that only uses their maneuver dice for repost and parry and it would be functionally stronger than the Champion until about level 10.

And that's the tough part about balancing the Champion; they're okay at 10th and higher when they have something (Extra AC from defense) to differentiate them. Boosting their crit range might make them deal too much damage at higher levels when they have 3 attacks.


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I changed my rules again. They now look like this:

Expertise
At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.

Remarkable Athlete
In addition to the other benefits your speed increases by 5 feet.

Reliable Talent
By 15th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10.


So at 3rd level the Champion is superior to the Battle Master in at least two skills. If he chooses Athletics (a good idea) he will be better at grapples and shoves. And shouldn't a Champion Fighter be better at those than a Bard or Rogue anyway?

I didn't limit the Expertise to physical skills because who am I to say what your Fighter should be good at?

The additional speed for Remarkable Athlete is because a "Remarkable Athlete" should be good at running AND jumping, right?

Anyway. What do people think? Sound good? Not enough? Too much?