D&D 5E Is the Evocation Wizard better at being a damage Sorcerer than a Sorcerer?

[Cap'n Kobold]

fireball as a bonus action, apply makeup as your action.

Wizards can't do that.

It does as first blush seem like an overpowdered combination: turning what would be a hard fight into a complete mascara.

However, despite cosmetic differences, both classes are a solid foundation for a blaster; just with differing tones. There will always be some fans of one class who take another class having similar capabilities as a slap in the face.

 

[ClaytonCross]

It is illegal to Overchannel a spell over 5th level. Meteor Swarm is not eligible for Overchannel.

Ouch, okay I did miss that and it changes things. Really hurts that ability since you get it when you can already cast 7th level spells. But since its 5th level spells and not "using spell slots 5 or lower" you can cast at 9th level right?

Cone of Cold 9th level 12d8+5 = 101 not resistible damage that does not harm up to 6 allies of your choice....

meh, your still better off casting MeteorSwarm avg damage 145 that does not harm up to 10 allies of your choice but then Sorcerer can to and will out do you.
Sorcerer lvl 20: Careful spell , empowered MeteorSwarm avg damage 145 + quicken, empowered firebolt avg 27 = 172 plus what ever you get from empowered.

That is defiantly, what I over looked.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It does as first blush seem like an overpowdered combination: turning what would be a hard fight into a complete mascara.

However, despite cosmetic differences, both classes are a solid foundation for a blaster; just with differing tones. There will always be some fans of one class who take another class having similar capabilities as a slap in the face.

THIS is why this forum needs a "Boo, Hiss" button!

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Ouch, okay I did miss that and it changes things. Really hurts that ability since you get it when you can already cast 7th level spells. But since its 5th level spells and not "using spell slots 5 or lower" you can cast at 9th level right?

No.

Casting a Spell at a Higher Level

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

You can Overchannel Cone of Cold V, but not Cone of Cold VI or Cone of Cold IX. 8d8+5 for 69 points of damage is about as good as it gets.

I don't pretend to understand the magical logic behind why Overchannel works that way--one of the downsides to 5E is that the writers often put "balance" in mechanical terms ahead of roleplaying considerations, to the point of often not thinking through the in-world logic at all. (Sometimes it seems as if all the 5E designers care about is not breaking their DPR curves.) A DM is free to alter Overchannel if he likes to make it more consistent. But by the rules as written, no, this still does not work.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Just a quick correction I believe:
It is the Necrotic damage backlash that the caster takes that ignores resistance and immunities, not the damage of the overchannelled spell.
Its nice as a one-off ability, but dangerous to try to use regularly.

Remark: the best usage of Overchannel is to Overchannel spells like Evard's Black Tentacles and (arguably--ask your DM if it applies) Bigby's Hand. Getting 37 HP of damage on every blow from Bigby's Hand is respectable. (If your DM will let you Overchannel Animate Objects that is even better--but if he lets you Overchannel Animate Objects he is crazy, because that makes no sense.)

Half-orc blood, Healing Word, Death Ward, and Revivify are all ways to theoretically get away with Overchannel more often than you might think. Death Ward and Revivify are the only ones which can be used an unlimited number of times per day though; half-orc blood and Healing Word are unlikely to more than triple your Overchannel uses per day.

 

[jaelis]

Careful Spell is kind of awesome when combined with crowd control spells like Web and Stinking Cloud, or Evard's Black Tentacles if you somehow manage to get it.

That is a pretty good idea to use it for control like that, I like it

 

[Cognomen's Cassowary]

So did I miss something big that makes Sorcerers more powerful DPR or are Sorcerers relegated to buffer/rpg roles using subtle spell etc? How do you use Sorcerers? (I do understand that Sorcerers DPR is not bad, just that I question there role when compared to Evocation Wizards.)

On top of the overchannel limitation which Hemlock pointed out, you are making a few subtle errors, I think. The comparison of empowered evocation to elemental affinity is apt, since they are both subclass features (and elemental affinity is often overrated). However, the other two comparisons show subclass features up against specific metamagics, when metamagic is a core class feature. Each sorcerer subclass has its own features, and they all have access to metamagic, which means that a sorcerer of any subclass is able to compete for damage with a damage-specialized wizard, while each subclass has its own strengths outside damage-dealing as well. Further, there are seven metamagic options, and the evocation wizard can only approximate two of them.

 

[Ovinomancer]

On top of the overchannel limitation which Hemlock pointed out, you are making a few subtle errors, I think. The comparison of empowered evocation to elemental affinity is apt, since they are both subclass features (and elemental affinity is often overrated). However, the other two comparisons show subclass features up against specific metamagics, when metamagic is a core class feature. Each sorcerer subclass has its own features, and they all have access to metamagic, which means that a sorcerer of any subclass is able to compete for damage with a damage-specialized wizard, while each subclass has its own strengths outside damage-dealing as well. Further, there are seven metamagic options, and the evocation wizard can only approximate two of them.

Right, but I think it's a fair comparison when you're asking 'which class can be blasty-est?' Here the question isn't which has the better baseline options for blasting, but instead which can do the best at it when trying. I think it's reasonably fair to note that sorcerers, which call themselves out as trying to be best at blasting, have the higher median blasting value but fail at tops (or tie, depending) to wizards. Add in the fact that the wizard can do this AND maintain a lot of versatility that the sorcs can't, and it's salt in the wound.

The Sorcerer class is poorly realized: it doesn't sufficiently meet any of it's presented design goals. You can have fun playing it, but that's not because the class it well designed.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Right, but I think it's a fair comparison when you're asking 'which class can be blasty-est?' Here the question isn't which has the better baseline options for blasting, but instead which can do the best at it when trying. I think it's reasonably fair to note that sorcerers, which call themselves out as trying to be best at blasting, have the higher median blasting value but fail at tops (or tie, depending) to wizards. Add in the fact that the wizard can do this AND maintain a lot of versatility that the sorcs can't, and it's salt in the wound.

The Sorcerer class is poorly realized: it doesn't sufficiently meet any of it's presented design goals. You can have fun playing it, but that's not because the class it well designed.

Just to be sure I know what you're talking about: in what way do sorcerers call themselves out as good at blasting? I don't remember any explicit claims to that effect in the PHB. Is it just because they have a narrow spell list with lots of blasting spells like Meteor Swarm/Chain Lightning/etc. on it?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Just to be sure I know what you're talking about: in what way do sorcerers call themselves out as good at blasting? I don't remember any explicit claims to that effect in the PHB. Is it just because they have a narrow spell list with lots of blasting spells like Meteor Swarm/Chain Lightning/etc. on it?

And elemental based subclasses, and class abilities that, at first look, seem to favor blasting (empower, quicken, careful, twin). However, the entire class functions best when not used at face value: careful works best with crowd control, twin works best with buffing, you should almost never create spell slots with sorcery points and instead burn low level slots to power metamagic on your higher slots, etc. For a class that has a narrow list and abilities that seem custom made to empower blasting, the sorcerer doesn't really deliver over the other casting classes.

Also, there's a lot of trap choices in the sorcerer class -- both in spell selection, metamagic selection, and subclass selection. Picking black as your dragonblood color, for instance, is bad. Picking subtle is very limited except in certain game styles. Knowing that you should probably skip picking up a blasting spell of your color (provided your red or white) every level and instead up-cast lower level spell and pick up some variety is another.

Can you have a successful sorcerer? Absolutely. But it's a lot easier to not have one with the class setup than to have one. You have to really grok the weirdness of the class to have a solid sorcerer. This is shown out by most people's examples of great sorcerers focusing on buffing or CC and not straight up blasting, which is what the 3.x iteration excelled at and is, at first blush, what the 5e version appears to excel at.