D&D 5E Tempest Cleric seems VERY strong

[guachi]

As you've noted, you haven't take bonus attacks from critical hits into account. If you have two attacks and a 5% chance of a critical hit you will get a bonus attack from critical hits a hair under 10% of the time. It's close enough to be 10% and that means your damage will increase by just about 5% from critical hits.

I rarely see the bonus action attack accounted for in discussion of the feat. I'm not sure why. Heck, it's an ability that works with any melee attack! If you combine the chance for extra attack from a critical hit, which is fairly easy to do, and the chance when you drop a creature to zero, which is a bit harder, it pushes GWM much farther ahead than not having the feat.

Try sometime and do the math to see how much damage increase is from the -5/+10 part of the feat and how much is the bonus attack. Yes, it requires assumptions, most notably on how often you drop a creature to 0 hp, but it's worth it.

 

[CapnZapp]

Just a short thank you Ancalagon, since I won't have time for a proper reply today.

Edit: I will have time for a proper sit-down in front if my computer no earlier than Wednesday.

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[CapnZapp]

As you've noted, you haven't take bonus attacks from critical hits into account. If you have two attacks and a 5% chance of a critical hit you will get a bonus attack from critical hits a hair under 10% of the time. It's close enough to be 10% and that means your damage will increase by just about 5% from critical hits.

I rarely see the bonus action attack accounted for in discussion of the feat. I'm not sure why. Heck, it's an ability that works with any melee attack! If you combine the chance for extra attack from a critical hit, which is fairly easy to do, and the chance when you drop a creature to zero, which is a bit harder, it pushes GWM much farther ahead than not having the feat.

Try sometime and do the math to see how much damage increase is from the -5/+10 part of the feat and how much is the bonus attack. Yes, it requires assumptions, most notably on how often you drop a creature to 0 hp, but it's worth it.

You are right in that any minmaxer will want to put his bonus action and reaction in play as often as possible. But arguing that the -5 from GWM hurts your chances of getting that is not looking at the whole picture. After all there's other, more reliable, ways to put your bonus action into... well, action. The "Cleave" part of GWM isn't actually all that.

(Afraid I'll have to get back to this another day, so just the obvious candidates: CE/SS, GWM/PM)

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[Yunru]

Ignoring crits also simplifies the maths more than just avoiding cleave. If we use manoeuvres, the damage boosting ones are doubled on the crits while precision isn't.

 

[Ancalagon]

You are right in that any minmaxer will want to put his bonus action and reaction in play as often as possible. But arguing that the -5 from GWM hurts your chances of getting that is not looking at the whole picture. After all there's other, more reliable, ways to put your bonus action into... well, action. The "Cleave" part of GWM isn't actually all that.

(Afraid I'll have to get back to this another day, so just the obvious candidates: CE/SS, GWM/PM)

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I concur with you that the bonus action is really a side issue. Of course, in many cases GWM still gives us more damage (the feat is NOT useless!), so more attacks = more benefits but I think that looking at it "per attack" is the best way to study it.

Ignoring crits also simplifies the maths more than just avoiding cleave. If we use manoeuvres, the damage boosting ones are doubled on the crits while precision isn't.

I didn't mention that, but exactly! The +10 damage of GWM is also not multiplied by crits.

I also did *not* calculate in the damage of the Great Weapon fighting style and rather had a 7 for the average damage. However, if I had done so it would have made GWM look even worse! As a general rule, high "base" damage make GWM worse because the - 5 to hit penalty applies to it. So if you have a flaming weapon (+2d6 damage) or sneak attack damage etc, GWM is less beneficial.

However, if you have a + to damage and to hit (like high stats, a +2 magical axe etc), this improves GWM. Ironically, this also hurts the feat because to get the feat you are often sacrificing an ASI. Initially I made GWM Rodrigo with two feats, not one, and he only had 16 strength, and that made the numbers even worse!

 

[Caliban]

However, if you have a + to damage and to hit (like high stats, a +2 magical axe etc), this improves GWM. Ironically, this also hurts the feat because to get the feat you are often sacrificing an ASI. Initially I made GWM Rodrigo with two feats, not one, and he only had 16 strength, and that made the numbers even worse!

In a game with Belts of Giant Strength, you are giving up an attunement slot instead of an ASI. And if the belt gives you a higher Str than you could achieve with ASI's, in the long run it's better for you to get the feat and hold out for a Belt of Str.

In many home games, getting a Belt isn't something you can count on, but in Adventure League or games that tend to play at lvl's 11+ and have a higher level of magic...it approaches an inevitability.

In Adventure League, I have a lvl 14 Fighter/Warlock with a 16 base str..and a +2 Legendary Greatsword and a Belt of Fire Giant Strength. He also has GWM (plus Sentinal, Heavy Armor Master, and Resilient Wisdom because he used all his ASI's on feats.)

The likely hood of achieving certain equipment/class/feat combinations is much higher in certain games (especially Adventure League, where you can find out exactly what magic items a module has before you play it, and make sure to play the ones with the magic items you want). In games where there are Magic Item Shops, or even if the DM simply listens to the players and makes items available based on their feedback, it is much easier to maximize the benefits of feats like GWM/Sharpshooter. Even more so if you are in a group that likes to play tactically and makes an effort to help maximize your chance of hitting (i.e. Bless, any number of ways to grant advantage, Haste, etc.)

I'm used to things like that from Living Grehawk and Organized Play with D&D 3.0 and 3.5. That kind of thing was commonplace once the PC's are higher level. So I agree with CapnZapp about the power of the feats, I just don't think it's a problem. It's exactly what I expect to happen. Because you can do equally powerful things with different combinations of feats/class abilities/items, without using GWM or Sharpshooter.

 

[Zardnaar]

In a game with Belts of Giant Strength, you are giving up an attunement slot instead of an ASI. And if the belt gives you a higher Str than you could achieve with ASI's, in the long run it's better for you to get the feat and hold out for a Belt of Str.

In many home games, getting a Belt isn't something you can count on, but in Adventure League or games that tend to play at lvl's 11+ and have a higher level of magic...it approaches an inevitability.

In Adventure League, I have a lvl 14 Fighter/Warlock with a 16 base str..and a +2 Legendary Greatsword and a Belt of Fire Giant Strength. He also has GWM (plus Sentinal, Heavy Armor Master, and Resilient Wisdom because he used all his ASI's on feats.)

The likely hood of achieving certain equipment/class/feat combinations is much higher in certain games (especially Adventure League, where you can find out exactly what magic items a module has before you play it, and make sure to play the ones with the magic items you want). In games where there are Magic Item Shops, or even if the DM simply listens to the players and makes items available based on their feedback, it is much easier to maximize the benefits of feats like GWM/Sharpshooter. Even more so if you are in a group that likes to play tactically and makes an effort to help maximize your chance of hitting (i.e. Bless, any number of ways to grant advantage, Haste, etc.)

I'm used to things like that from Living Grehawk and Organized Play with D&D 3.0 and 3.5. That kind of thing was commonplace once the PC's are higher level. So I agree with CapnZapp about the power of the feats, I just don't think it's a problem. It's exactly what I expect to happen. Because you can do equally powerful things with different combinations of feats/class abilities/items, without using GWM or Sharpshooter.

That sounds terrible.

 

[Ancalagon]

That sounds terrible.

I concur. Stepping away from pc+items builds is a feature of 5e.

Anyway, I started a new thread on GWM so we can stop derailing this one.

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[Caliban]

And yet, in spite of your poor opinion of the playstyle, thousands of people continue to play and enjoy the game that way.

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[DaveDash]

Deleted and moved to the other thread.