Horwath
Legend
How is that homebrewing?
Or PHB should have been written like 3.5e where it spells everything out, from concealed weapons(daggers had a bonus back then to conceal) or rules for fighting in narrow/low spaces.
D&D 5E Great Weapon Mastery - once more into the breach! (with math)
How is that homebrewing?
Or PHB should have been written like 3.5e where it spells everything out, from concealed weapons(daggers had a bonus back then to conceal) or rules for fighting in narrow/low spaces.
Huh. Clearly you didn't try then, given it's in the OP.
Of course they do, they're a crit-fisher. But I'm talking averages, not anecdotal evidence.
Seems to me the constant GWM argument is similar to shopping on Amazon......
You may well be able to find almost everything on Amazon cheaper than going out and buying it, anything from 40% off, to just a few pennies cheaper. However, there are many differing reasons NOT to shop on Amazon: from not having to wait for delivery, to personal preference, to wanting to support local shops, to impulse buying.
For some people, cheaper is cheaper. There is literally no point shopping anywhere other than Amazon. For other people, their preferences have a cost to them they are happy to pay – at which point the elasticity of that cost becomes a very subjective.
For example, I regularly pay 20% more for model paints and brushes because I think Amazon are a bit evil and I want my local game store to stay open. I’m fine with that – others would say that’s 50 quid a year wasted by not buying from Amazon. There are still others who would never buy local because instead of it being 4.99 a pot, it’s 4.95 on Amazon, and then tell you it’s just not viable to shop locally any more.
(Of course there are obvious issues – If there’s a 1000 pound TV in a shop and its 500 quid online, not many people have the kind of loose cash to waste 500 quid for any number of reasons)
You may well be able to find almost everything on Amazon cheaper than going out and buying it, anything from 40% off, to just a few pennies cheaper. However, there are many differing reasons NOT to shop on Amazon: from not having to wait for delivery, to personal preference, to wanting to support local shops, to impulse buying.
For some people, cheaper is cheaper. There is literally no point shopping anywhere other than Amazon. For other people, their preferences have a cost to them they are happy to pay – at which point the elasticity of that cost becomes a very subjective.
For example, I regularly pay 20% more for model paints and brushes because I think Amazon are a bit evil and I want my local game store to stay open. I’m fine with that – others would say that’s 50 quid a year wasted by not buying from Amazon. There are still others who would never buy local because instead of it being 4.99 a pot, it’s 4.95 on Amazon, and then tell you it’s just not viable to shop locally any more.
(Of course there are obvious issues – If there’s a 1000 pound TV in a shop and its 500 quid online, not many people have the kind of loose cash to waste 500 quid for any number of reasons)
Horwath
Legend
Half or champion maybe for crit fishing or barbarian for extra rage bonus, but still PAM is better.
for fighter it is 3×(1d8+5) vs. PAM 2×(1d10+5) + 1d4+5(reroll 1's&2's). 28,5 vs. 30,6
PAM wins by pure dps, also it has better reach, better AoO, and can almost force certain AoO per round.
Also you only need 1 magic weapon not two.
And action surge is more powerfull 2×(1d8+5) vs. 2×(1d10+5); 19 vs. 22,6
GWM, depends on your opponents AC, maybe your GWM simply chooses badly when to "turn on" power attack and when to "turn off".
Using it vs high AC or not using vs low AC can be very bad for your DPR.
Why does no-one ever follow the links? D:
PAM and GWF is out of the question because it heavily focuses on Sneak Attack.
Here's the build: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?553760-Repeatable-DPR-Kings
And here's the maths: https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx...=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AHy1CwMBj8Z4eAs
As we're deep in the maths here, quick question......
I've just been running out some numbers and I'm getting something really fantastic falling out of them. And I'm convinced I'm missing a variable......
Right so we are comparing 2 Fighters at level 11
SeB) Sword & Board: Duelist Fighting Style, Shield Master, Longsword+2 with +1d6 Fire
Vs
GWen) Greatsword: GWF, GWM, Greatsword+2 with +1d6 Fire
Both have 20 STR. Both have Crit = Dam x2.
So using 100% hit then the damage per attack (with the +10 from GWM and +5% for extra attack from GWM on a crit):
SeB = 17 (Ave Weapon+Fighting Style+Strength+Weapon Bonus+Ave Bonus Damage = 4.5+2+5+2+3.5)
Gwen = 30.27 (Ave Weapon+Fighting Style+Strength+Weapon Bonus+Ave Bonus Damage + GWM = 7+1.33+5+2+3.5+10) x 1.05
OK - now here's where it gets interesting. While Gwen can use GWM if she chooses, Seb can make a Shove Attack as a bonus action. If he succeeds he gets advantage on his attacks (Prone attacker). This does 2 things: Doubles Crit chance, and adds roughly 3.5 to the attack.
Making an (Incorrect) Assumption that Seb suceeds his Athletics check every time, something interesting happens when you look at who does more damage Vs AC (11-22)
11: Gwen+30%
12: Gwen+22%
13: Gwen+15%
14: Gwen+8%
15: Gwen+1%
16: Seb+6%
17: Seb+13%
18: Seb+22%
19: Seb+32%
20: Seb+44%
21: Seb+59%
22: Seb+79%
So here we have confirmation that at AC15, the damage difference between Gwen and Seb equalizes. Either side the Damage bonuses diverge at roughly the same rate.
And even if you bang this up to level 20, Damage equalisation occurs at only AC16. (NB: if you drop it to level 1 with no weapon bonuses, damage equalises at AC13)
OK - So now lets recorrect for that Shove contest. Now due to the way Monsters and skills are designed, A Fighter trained in Athletics is hardly ever going have a negative check on a contested Athletics, and is likely to have a much higher score. But even if we give them an equal chance, because of the lack of difference between damage output with attack and without, overall damage drop is minimal.
The outcome? Even with equal Athletics rolls Seb and Gwen's damage equalises only 1 AC later (16), AND Gwen's Diverging Damage bonus flattens out (It's still only +35% at AC11)!
Now obviously there are some stipulations here as the weapon matters, but again that's evenly spread. The higher the bonus to attack, the more it benefits Gwen. The More Bonus Damage, the more it benefits Seb.
Therefore - playing about with the sliders of level, Weapon Bonus, weapon damage, and Monster Athletics score - I can only conclude that for a flat DPS choice for a Fighter, Duellist with SM is Just as good as TWF with GWM, if not better......
OH - I forgot. Plus you have a higher AC, a bonus to Dex saving throws AND Evasion.....
OK - I must be missing something, Right?
(oh and if anyone wants the spreadsheet and macros let me know)
I've just been running out some numbers and I'm getting something really fantastic falling out of them. And I'm convinced I'm missing a variable......
Right so we are comparing 2 Fighters at level 11
SeB) Sword & Board: Duelist Fighting Style, Shield Master, Longsword+2 with +1d6 Fire
Vs
GWen) Greatsword: GWF, GWM, Greatsword+2 with +1d6 Fire
Both have 20 STR. Both have Crit = Dam x2.
So using 100% hit then the damage per attack (with the +10 from GWM and +5% for extra attack from GWM on a crit):
SeB = 17 (Ave Weapon+Fighting Style+Strength+Weapon Bonus+Ave Bonus Damage = 4.5+2+5+2+3.5)
Gwen = 30.27 (Ave Weapon+Fighting Style+Strength+Weapon Bonus+Ave Bonus Damage + GWM = 7+1.33+5+2+3.5+10) x 1.05
OK - now here's where it gets interesting. While Gwen can use GWM if she chooses, Seb can make a Shove Attack as a bonus action. If he succeeds he gets advantage on his attacks (Prone attacker). This does 2 things: Doubles Crit chance, and adds roughly 3.5 to the attack.
Making an (Incorrect) Assumption that Seb suceeds his Athletics check every time, something interesting happens when you look at who does more damage Vs AC (11-22)
11: Gwen+30%
12: Gwen+22%
13: Gwen+15%
14: Gwen+8%
15: Gwen+1%
16: Seb+6%
17: Seb+13%
18: Seb+22%
19: Seb+32%
20: Seb+44%
21: Seb+59%
22: Seb+79%
So here we have confirmation that at AC15, the damage difference between Gwen and Seb equalizes. Either side the Damage bonuses diverge at roughly the same rate.
And even if you bang this up to level 20, Damage equalisation occurs at only AC16. (NB: if you drop it to level 1 with no weapon bonuses, damage equalises at AC13)
OK - So now lets recorrect for that Shove contest. Now due to the way Monsters and skills are designed, A Fighter trained in Athletics is hardly ever going have a negative check on a contested Athletics, and is likely to have a much higher score. But even if we give them an equal chance, because of the lack of difference between damage output with attack and without, overall damage drop is minimal.
The outcome? Even with equal Athletics rolls Seb and Gwen's damage equalises only 1 AC later (16), AND Gwen's Diverging Damage bonus flattens out (It's still only +35% at AC11)!
Now obviously there are some stipulations here as the weapon matters, but again that's evenly spread. The higher the bonus to attack, the more it benefits Gwen. The More Bonus Damage, the more it benefits Seb.
Therefore - playing about with the sliders of level, Weapon Bonus, weapon damage, and Monster Athletics score - I can only conclude that for a flat DPS choice for a Fighter, Duellist with SM is Just as good as TWF with GWM, if not better......
OH - I forgot. Plus you have a higher AC, a bonus to Dex saving throws AND Evasion.....
OK - I must be missing something, Right?
(oh and if anyone wants the spreadsheet and macros let me know)
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Yes, you're missing everyone who claims GWM is overpowered conveniently ignores how to get advantage and just assumes you have it.
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
Well I looked at it on my phone and the numbers were missing, some display problem, but to be fair to you I should have looked again on my laptop
To be fair to *me* I still don't understand the math since it makes references to books I don't have.
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