D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[FrogReaver]

Analysis can be objective, and can be verified. Actual play necessarily brings DM judgement into it, and can obscure the root contributing factors to any problems - done well, by compensating for those problems, so they're less likely to be noticed by the players.

IMHO, for any single table with a good enough DM, that's the best solution. Trying to 'fix' any specific issue, mechanically, is a different kind of challenge - those of us who like tinkering with systems may find it worthwhile...

True, it's just the single factor that's easiest to analyze - it comes already quantified, after all.; )

DPR is also the fighters strongest suit, by far, as its Action. Surge and Extra Attack features synergize powerfully with any per-attack damage bonus. And, it's bonus ASIs can deliver those bonuses.

But in the more varied realm of actual play versatility counts for a great deal more, versatility let's you address each of those 'other factors,' as they come up. The fighters versatility is at the low end of the spectrum. It's least-versatile archetype, the Champion has none to speak of, the EK less than any other caster (being initially restricted to 2 schools), and the BM, the 'complex fighter' option, as is evident, above, with its very few, all-low-level, locked-in, exclusively-combat maneuvers, has little more versatility, maybe less.

Yep. Fighter's lack versatility. Then again it's not like barbarians or rangers or paladins have much of it either. It's just compared to the fighter's 0 versatility even a little feels like an infinite step forward.

The only melee character I can think of that has actual versatility is the shadow monk. You can melee or ranged. You have great out of combat abilities. You have control abilities. You have great mobility. You have a nice damage upping ability (flurry of blows). You don't require a weapon. Etc.

Anyways, :thumbsup I agree with basically everything you said here.

 

[FrogReaver]

Never said anything about shield master

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Lol sorry. No idea why I was thinking of shield master.

Anyways, take basically everything I said and apply it to trip attack. (Unless you are thinking of trip attack on a CE SS sharpshooter fighter that tries to get into melee range. That could be highly entertaining IMO and probably pretty good.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Lol sorry. No idea why I was thinking of shield master.

Anyways, take basically everything I said and apply it to trip attack. (Unless you are thinking of trip attack on a CE SS sharpshooter fighter that tries to get into melee range. That could be highly entertaining IMO and probably pretty good.

No I mean depending on your group, just using a damage enhancing maneuver instead on relying on the -5/+10 feats and precision is not so much worse.
It is actually pretty useful to trip and then use -5/+10 with advantage.

The fighter can with a low stat investment be a durable heavy hitter.

As variant human you can start using great weapon mastery from level 1. Or better from level 3 in most cases.

Comparing the battle master and the phb ranger and the sorcerer, you might notice that all suffer from a bit low versality. I think the designers erred a bit towards the lower spectrum. All classes could need some help in that regard.

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[smbakeresq]

Yep. Fighter's lack versatility. Then again it's not like barbarians or rangers or paladins have much of it either. It's just compared to the fighter's 0 versatility even a little feels like an infinite step forward.

The only melee character I can think of that has actual versatility is the shadow monk. You can melee or ranged. You have great out of combat abilities. You have control abilities. You have great mobility. You have a nice damage upping ability (flurry of blows). You don't require a weapon. Etc.

Anyways, :thumbsup I agree with basically everything you said here.

I get the point your constantly trying to make with a singular build but Paladins have great versatility built right in through spells, auras to help the team, healing, disease removal, smites, high Charisma scores for social aspects, immunities, etc. Mobility is a problem (absent horse) but you can choose devotions that help out (misty step.). There is just a lot there.

It doesn’t come until 9th level but Oath of Crown with spirit guardians up is pretty hilarious. Yes you have to risk concentration checks but the slow effect and constant damage ramp up fast.


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[smbakeresq]

No I mean depending on your group, just using a damage enhancing maneuver instead on relying on the -5/+10 feats and precision is not so much worse.
It is actually pretty useful to trip and then use -5/+10 with advantage.

The fighter can with a low stat investment be a durable heavy hitter.

As variant human you can start using great weapon mastery from level 1. Or better from level 3 in most cases.

Comparing the battle master and the phb ranger and the sorcerer, you might notice that all suffer from a bit low versality. I think the designers erred a bit towards the lower spectrum. All classes could need some help in that regard.

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Shield master or trips is pretty good depending on group, it can force focus fire and more damage by tripping them and then attacking them or forcing them into a damaging effect.

Martial PC’s benefit by being built last, seeing what you have out there.


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[Satyrn]

This is interesting.

I like playing a single classed fighter, and would do so at any table. If I was playing at a table with one of you DMs who would give the fighter more I'd be thinking "cool."

 

[FrogReaver]

I get the point your constantly trying to make with a singular build but Paladins have great versatility built right in through spells, auras to help the team, healing, disease removal, smites, high Charisma scores for social aspects, immunities, etc. Mobility is a problem (absent horse) but you can choose devotions that help out (misty step.). There is just a lot there.

It doesn’t come until 9th level but Oath of Crown with spirit guardians up is pretty hilarious. Yes you have to risk concentration checks but the slow effect and constant damage ramp up fast.


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I don't know anyone that's ever looked at a paladin and said wow that's a versatile class. You sure that's the part you want to take issue with, the part about the paladin only seeming versatile next to the fighter? It's not like that's saying they have no versatility. It's just that they have a miniscule amount of versatility. Almost any level 3 full caster has much more versatility even than a level 10 paladin.

I suppose ultimately there's too many different takes on versatility to really reach a uniform consensus.
1. There's the type of versatility where you can supplement a role but not fill it entirely. Paladins are great at that kind of versatility. They are great at functioning as a lesser cleric when it comes to healing and diseases and such.
2. Paladins have a lot of diversity in what their subclasses do. But once that choice is made there's only 1 or 2 things you can now do that you couldn't do before. This is character building versatility. That's not really what we mean most the time when we talk about versatility.
3. Then there's the kind of versatility where a class is versatile because it can do a lot of different things and really excels at most of them. Shadow monks fit this category very well for the reasons I previously stated.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is interesting.

I like playing a single classed fighter, and would do so at any table. If I was playing at a table with one of you DMs who would give the fighter more I'd be thinking "cool."

I'm about to play a fighter in my upcoming campaign. I'm worried about the lack of out of combat stuff. So at level 5 or 6 i'm really considering taking some rogue levels to really boost that.

To make out of combat bearable I'm going to play him as a hillbilly. Super Smart at outdoorsy stuff like hunting and tracking and not bad at basic tactics like kiting but dumb as a brick when it comes to most everything else.

 

[Satyrn]

I'm about to play a fighter in my upcoming campaign. I'm worried about the lack of out of combat stuff. So at level 5 or 6 i'm really considering taking some rogue levels to really boost that.

To make out of combat bearable I'm going to play him as a hillbilly. Super Smart at outdoorsy stuff like hunting and tracking and not bad at basic tactics like kiting but dumb as a brick when it comes to most everything else.

That's a neat personality.

But truly, you really can get a lot of mileage just from the background proficiencies - especially if your DM actually lets you follow the rule that you can just take whatever you want - and especially if you're cool with exploiting it.

I mean, you can take any too skills you want - take a knowledge skill the rest of the group doesn't have and you've given yourself a niche, and grab a social skill so you can contribute there. Then take thieves' tools and alchemist's supplies for the tools and you've got the MacGuyver thing going for you.

You're not going to be the best at these things, but you are going to be good at them.

And really, if these abilities are only worth having if you're the best at it, then there's no need to have any of it.

And I know - "Background stuff doesn't count because everyone gets one" - and yet my fighter felt like a fully fleshed out, interesting character who contributed his fair share through all bits of the game.

As I said, it's enough for me, but if a DM's gonna give me more, then cool.

 

[smbakeresq]

I don't know anyone that's ever looked at a paladin and said wow that's a versatile class. You sure that's the part you want to take issue with, the part about the paladin only seeming versatile next to the fighter? It's not like that's saying they have no versatility. It's just that they have a miniscule amount of versatility. Almost any level 3 full caster has much more versatility even than a level 10 paladin.

I suppose ultimately there's too many different takes on versatility to really reach a uniform consensus.
1. There's the type of versatility where you can supplement a role but not fill it entirely. Paladins are great at that kind of versatility. They are great at functioning as a lesser cleric when it comes to healing and diseases and such.
2. Paladins have a lot of diversity in what their subclasses do. But once that choice is made there's only 1 or 2 things you can now do that you couldn't do before. This is character building versatility. That's not really what we mean most the time when we talk about versatility.
3. Then there's the kind of versatility where a class is versatile because it can do a lot of different things and really excels at most of them. Shadow monks fit this category very well for the reasons I previously stated.

Comparing anything to the monk for versatility is absurd. It’s built as one of the most versatile class in the game, that was the idea when it was implemented years ago, when it was even better, topping out at d20 for monk damage.

I was just comparing Paladins to the fighter class, the thread we are in.


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