Xanathar's, Wizards, and FLGSes Charging For Playspace

Dannyalcatraz

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GenCon is an event, not a daily business. Even if the activity performed during its duration is 90% the same aswhat happens in an area game store, the psychology of the attendees and other participants is very different.

And that affects people’s spending habits: how they’re spending, what they’re spending it on, and how much can all change from normal behavior.
 

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First, apologies: though I'm not new to the Intarwebs, quoting multiple posts in one reply is beyond my knowledge with this forum software.

I truly appreciate people who support their FLGS via MSRP buying of products in the store. There just aren't enough of them. In fact, I've bought the arguments I hear from those who *don't* pay MSRP while trying to convince people to do so. I find it akin to accepting charity: you know, and I know, that you could get that product 40% cheaper. In essence you're donating money to me. It feels as if I am ripping people off or depending entirely on their goodwill and, well, businesses don't really succeed if they're relying on people to realize they should *not* take the bargain offered elsewhere.

[MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION]: I don't really expect people who can host at home to pay for space. The frequency of purchase of D&D accessories, and their price points, does not make enough money to keep a space afloat in and of itself (although in a larger store, cross-gaming customers can buy enough regularly to keep up the space).
[MENTION=6685730]DMMike[/MENTION]: The gaming cafe model is an excellent one--but it's also much more expensive to set up, run, etc...and the best use of such a space's appeal is not to draw an RPG crowd at all; if I were to do it, it'd be pretty much all boardgames and directed towards a dating/youth market looking for something different to do. But that's just me.
[MENTION=18182]Dire Bare[/MENTION]: I love hearing about successful stores, but I'll point a few things out: first, you're in Idaho; rural areas and the midwest (due to a lack of competition for entertainment dollars) tend to do quite a lot better than places in more urban areas from my knowledge. Second, they make their money from CCGs and minis games primarily. Third, you just said they lost your business because the employees screwed up--a problem that Amazon does not have. Lastly, you *have to* "care whether they're freeloaders", though many FLGS don't. With the exception of the minority who strive to buy MSRP, RPGers essentially have a large contingent of folks who do the equivalent of showing up to a restaurant or bar with their own food and drink, while occasionally buying an appetizer and expecting to stay there for five to eight hours. People like that aren't looking for an amazing *retail* experience, they're looking for an amazing *play* experience--and charging for that is not, in my opinion, unethical.
[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] and [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION]: There are in fact stores that make money entirely from hosting games. There are a few models for it, including the cafe model. I expect they will grow. My model right now is not profitable under normal circumstances, but that's because I'm only open two days a week for other reasons. The expanded model for when that's possible involves leveraging Meetup groups on non-RPG days, for boardgame nights; hosting game design & other merit badge projects for scouts; catering to teens and children who want to learn D&D via charging for lessons (yes there is a market, and it's one where parents know how much it costs to host a kid for hours), and a bunch more things.
[MENTION=40810]Mirtek[/MENTION]: Exactly correct. My FLGS made its money on CCGs and minis.
[MENTION=6803664]ccs[/MENTION]: 1) I stay in business because I have another revenue stream from something else.
2) I give DMs free sessions, one for each session they run; I also give out free sessions for other volunteer services and work.
3) I could lower my stock--but then I would lose all those initial sales to Amazon. Which, ultimately, it's just better to tell people to buy on Amazon.
4) (and this also applies to a later comment by [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]): My point is that (a) the industry should definitely change to a charging-for-games model post haste. There should be no "free" playspace outside of a library. Mandatory purchases, cafe services, and other things can also suffice. I simply don't understand why there is such pushback: you don't balk at paying for bowling, miniature golf, billiards, target shooting, batting cages, and the like; and what you're paying for are the tools to do the thing with and the space. Why are FLGS so incredibly different? There's not much money in the people who only play at home--but there is a definite need for a place to *play*.

The entire FLGS industry owes its origins to RPGs and minis games. In the 80s, they were the only places you could get them and, more importantly, the only way you could meet other people to play those games with; and from there grew everything we have now. Most Magic players in the early days were RPG players first. Without a space to play, these days, the games all die. When the online competition to buy product makes the margins & volume so low that FLGS go out of business...the space goes away, and the people and communities go away, and the home game groups eventually age out, so there's no one new and enthusiastic to greet and play with people face to face...and the future is nothing but virtual tabletop, less human interaction, and less friendships built.
 

Dannyalcatraz

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In essence you're donating money to me. It feels as if I am ripping people off or depending entirely on their goodwill and, well, businesses don't really succeed if they're relying on people to realize they should *not* take the bargain offered elsewhere.

I don’t see it that way. I see it as investing in a business that will continue to bring me things I want...sometimes, things I don’t know exist. It’s an investment in fostering a community of like-minded enthusiasts.

Or, putting it differently, as an adult, I am free to buy alcoholic beverages online at amazing prices. I can buy some in local stores. But sometimes, I buy my booze in restaurants or bars, even though it may cost 5x as much. Why?
[video=youtube;zGdpE8Dsr0U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGdpE8Dsr0U&sns=em[/video]

Amazon knows me as a screen name, address, shopping patterns, and a CC number or PayPal account. My FLGSes- and the other patrons within- have known me by name, game preferences...and jewelry designs, music tastes, what I cook, what I’m studying, etc.

And that knowledge is 2-ways. I know something about the people I’m shopping alongside or from. There’s a married couple I know of, one who worked in and the other, a customer of a game store that closed over a decade ago. And I run into them from time to time as I shop in bookstores, at Costco, and other places. We chat.

Can’t say that about Amazon. They’ve got centers near my house, but those aren’t the custserv reps I’ve dealt with. There’s no community of commonality there.
 

Scott, you shouldn't feel like you are asking for charity when your price is higher than Amazon. Nor should you feel that Amazon outcompeted you fair and square. Amazon and other online retailers, but particularly Amazon, are often said to have outcompeted bookstores all over Europe, particularly in western Europe. An important part of this story is tax.

Most of the european bookstores they outcompeted and that subsequently went out of business, paid the regular amount of tax. (Money that contributes to paying for everything from defence, healthcare, roadbuilding, etc.) Amazon hardly pays tax in Europe. Amazon Europe is based in Luxembourg, a tax haven, and aggregates the billions of dollars of sales from individual countries across the continent.

Note that I'm not claiming Amazon is doing anything illegal. Tax avoidance / tax mitigation is not illegal, only tax evasion is. But keep that in mind next time you see another FLGS going bust. Tax avoidance is a piece of the puzzle. There is an interesting Guardian-article about this here: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...s-corporation-tax-to-74m-as-sales-soar-to-7bn (The article is from august 2017, but as far as I know, everything still applies.)

EDIT: Spelling, grammar
 
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Dannyalcatraz

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It’s a big part, possibly bigger than lower overhead or economies of scale, oligopsonistic purchasing ability, etc.
 

Mirtek

Hero
It’s a big part, possibly bigger than lower overhead or economies of scale, oligopsonistic purchasing ability, etc.

Also isn't Amazon actually losing money since forever? It's kind of a snowball system kept going by contioniously finding new people to throw money into due to hoping to be in when the profits finally flow in
 

I understand the point you're trying to make, but as far as taxes are concerned, Amazon already had a huge lock on the US market before April (when it started to pay taxes by state).
The other thing is: while it may be the case that I *shouldn't* care, the reality is that my customers *do*. There are a core group who will pay more than Amazon by buying it from me (which is why I do it anyway), but that number is far outstripped by the number of people who won't even buy the book--either getting it by PDF, by D&D Beyond, or just borrowing it in-play from someone who already owns it. Maybe 30% of my entire customer base has an interest in buying the actual book, and are the sorts of people who would willfully be able to pay above Amazon.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
If you charge players for table space, and players are willing to pay for table space, I see no reason to stop what you are doing if it helps keep your lights on.

Those who don't like it won't come, those who find having a central place with a larger group of gamers to be beneficial will. There's no one losing here.
 

Ive heard a lot of people complain about paying for space and how it goes against the grain but i heavily disagree.

Rpgs are a form of entertainment. We dont complain about paying to see a movie.

Stores are a commercial site that needs to pay rent for their space. We dont expect to be able to sit at a cafe and not order anything.

Im all for paying for play space, especially if that results in a good play experience (a clean space, code of conduct, etc)

There is also a known psychological effect that people value items that are free less than those that cost. Perhaps charging a small but nominal fee as the op has listed above brings in more respectful clientele?
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
GenCon is an event, not a daily business. Even if the activity performed during its duration is 90% the same aswhat happens in an area game store, the psychology of the attendees and other participants is very different.

And that affects people’s spending habits: how they’re spending, what they’re spending it on, and how much can all change from normal behavior.

Sure Gencon is an event and running a game of DnD (or whatever) is an event as well. I appreciate you have a friend that does not want to pay. And really there would be no difference between what he was paying before and what he would be paying now if the store put a charge in place.
 

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