Xanathar's, Wizards, and FLGSes Charging For Playspace

I would personally pay 20 for that service, however for some the price might seem too steep. I second the poster/flyer idea comparingg prices to other forms of entertainment. I feel that this is a perception issue you can address. Its a neautreal clean and safe environment, so the ticket price is for more that tables and chairs. You could also offer a concession price for kids to encourage them to the hobby.

As mentioned above however, you'll recuperate a lot more funds with snacks and microtransactions. If you price drinks and snacks at the same as the 7-11 (assuming you'll have a positive margin on these) or even a bit more people will likely pay for the convenience of having them right there.

I only think its a shame you don't gave a store in sydney, aus, scott!
 

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[MENTION=6802666]scottaroberts[/MENTION] i like your code of conduct. If it was myself the only thing i would add is a section about body odour which can easily be offensive as talking loud. Do you ever have the problem at your site?

I have walked out of stores in the past because of the smell. I think its part of respecting other peoples space that a person tales a minimum of care. And sad to say, some people dont seem to think about it or care.
 

Ath-kethin

Elder Thing
There are two local game stores within a 5 minute drive from me, and both have tables available for people to play. One is primarily a miniatures wargaming store, the other is a comic shop.

The comic shop is where I buy my books, largely because I know most of the staff. They also charge a fee to play at their tables (including AL games), but the fee you pay ($5 per time or $20 for a month pass) counts as store credit. You can survive it to buy soda or candy or chips or comics or (my strategy) gaming books.

As I have mentioned before, I am fortunate enough that $50 twice a year for a book is, while painful, not an insurmountable obstacle. I also really want the place to still be in business in another 6-10 years, when my 4 year old will be able to play at the various tables arranged by the store.

I don't pay out of charity, I pay because I understand the cost of giving my kid an experience in some way parallel to what I had when I was younger, and I'm willing to help pay to make it happen. I hope the plan works.

I will confess, however, that when I am RUNNING games I do it at the other store. They have no charge for using their space, which makes life easier for me and my players. It's also true, however, that I/we buy a LOT more in the way of snacks at that store, largely because the game sessions are much longer.
 

MarkB

Legend
I'm a member of an RPG club that play weekly two-hour games and hire space at a local community hall. Full members pay a £20 annual membership fee and £2 per session they attend, while those who haven't paid the annual fee pay £3 per session. DMs are exempt from the per-session fees, in acknowledgement that their role requires a higher investment of time, and often money.

I also regularly game at a local boardgame cafe, which charges £4 per person for indefinite use of a table in addition to the costs of food and drink, again with the option of an annual membership fee for reduced per-session costs.

I haven't attended any game sessions at FLGSs recently, but I would fully expect them to operate in similar fashion. If I'm making use of a public space for entertainment or enjoyment, I expect to pay for it in some capacity - whether that means paying a premium for their product, or paying a simple lump-sum fee.
 

pogre

Legend
This is just an idea from a person who has never run a retail store, let alone a gaming store.

I think you should change your DM incentive. Instead of giving them a free pass at a table to play, what about giving them store credit for every session they run that has four or more players.

I think you are low on your prices, but I don't know your market.
 

I would point out that Amazon did NOT have Xanathar's early so I placed a pre-order with my FLGS and got it at sticker price on the 10th. Charging a nominal fee for table space is fine and giving some incentives to DMs is great. I'd rather keep my dollars local anyway and will gladly pay to do so.

I currently play at a game cafe every other week. They charge $5 to play all the games you want all day. DMs don't have to pay the fee. The cafe has food and beverages so it really is ideal. Some of the players have even bought annual or monthly memberships to the cafe which offer certain benefits each week (e.g. half priced appetizer, bring a friend for free, free coffee, etc). The "cover charge" is not a detriment to people showing up, in my experience. Other than memberships, you might offer a "frequent players card" which gives the players a free session after getting their card punched 8 or 10 or 12 times. People love that stuff. Good luck!
 

Lord_Blacksteel

Adventurer
4) (and this also applies to a later comment by @Dannyalcatraz): My point is that (a) the industry should definitely change to a charging-for-games model post haste. There should be no "free" playspace outside of a library. Mandatory purchases, cafe services, and other things can also suffice.

Let me dive into this with one perspective - I've been playing RPG's since 1979 when i was ten years old and I've never gotten away from the hobby. My longest break is measured in months, not years, so it's pretty much continuous for almost 40 years now.

I've never played a single RPG session in a store.

Like Danny Alcatraz upthread I live in DFW and have for most of this time and there are plenty of FLGS's within a 60 minute drive.

We have always played at someone's home. When we were kids that's because that was the easiest place to go. We sat around somebody's kitchen table and played for hours.

Once we could drive we still did it this way because it still worked.

College - it was somebody's apartment, house, or dorm.

As adults it's the same way - most of us have a game room or living room where we can do this and some of us have a dedicated game room set up for it.

So in my experience you don't need a dedicated neutral space to play. I get why it's convenient for some and if it works for you that's cool but for at least some of us it's a total non-factor. I have all of my books, miniatures, props, mats, markers, dice, and all of the things you accumulate for gaming organized and stored at home. If I play at someone one else's home they typically have the same situation.

The idea that people should have to pay to play in your space ... I get the economics from your side but I've never seen a store that was nice enough that it made me say "wow I'd pay to play here." Especially in the sense that it had more positives, and fewer negatives, than playing at home. You buy books specifically for a game, you buy dice for a game, but space - space is the easiest thing to find and it's not something specifically tied to the game. Paying for some kind of special event - sure, I get that. Paying for 4-5-6- friends to get together and play a session? You'd better have a truly compelling "something" there or it makes no sense at all to me.


I simply don't understand why there is such pushback: you don't balk at paying for bowling, miniature golf, billiards, target shooting, batting cages, and the like; and what you're paying for are the tools to do the thing with and the space. Why are FLGS so incredibly different? There's not much money in the people who only play at home--but there is a definite need for a place to *play*.

I don't have a bowling alley at home; I don't have a mini golf course at home; I don't have batting cages in my backyard; I don't have a 75 foot wide movie screen at home. Those are specialized things necessary for a certain experience and I will pay to use them. Pretty much everybody has a table and chairs or some couches or some beanbag chairs and some empty floorspace - those are all that's needed to play an RPG. Some hobbies require the use of specialized facilities, from bowling to drag racing - RPG's do not. So attempting to monetize your space means you're swimming upstream right from the start, business-wise.

The entire FLGS industry owes its origins to RPGs and minis games. In the 80s, they were the only places you could get them

Well, in the 80's you could buy RPG's and wargames (and the associated miniatures) everywhere from Toys R Us to Kmart to Target to Michael's craft stores, not to mention the Sears catalog and various mail-order houses. There were also "Hobby Shops" that covered a variety of hobbies and games were just one of many things they included. The FLGS wasn't a thing in much of the country until later.



and, more importantly, the only way you could meet other people to play those games with; and from there grew everything we have now.

Oh no no no - you realize there were at least 3 separate generations of D&D'ers that got started without game stores being a thing right? The OD&D crowd mostly seems to have picked it up in college. The Holmes edition basic players like me mostly bought it at a retail store and started up our own crew or joined in to one we knew at school. A few years later the Moldvay Basic set brought in another wave and again it was not store-centered playing that drove this - it was playing at home or at school with your friends or through some kind of high school / college gaming club.

Most Magic players in the early days were RPG players first. Without a space to play, these days, the games all die.

Magic, 40K, X-Wing are all competitive type games with a tournament/event component that drives playing with strangers in a neutral space. RPG's are an entirely different animal. Without that neutral space those games might die, but they also seem to be where stores make most of their money so that seems to be a self-settling kind of thing, right?


When the online competition to buy product makes the margins & volume so low that FLGS go out of business...the space goes away, and the people and communities go away, and the home game groups eventually age out, so there's no one new and enthusiastic to greet and play with people face to face...and the future is nothing but virtual tabletop, less human interaction, and less friendships built.

How many Napoleonic miniatures players do you come across in stores? How many WW2 mini gamers? Heck, how many historical miniatures players period? How many people do you see playing ASL or other board wargames in stores? These games are still produced, supported, and played. They still have a community. Much of it is online these days because stores do not support those hobbies. There are events like meetups and cons where face to face play does happen.

As for home game groups aging out leaving no one new ... it's a good thing none of us are raising kids who are interested in some of these things and who then go off the high school and college and find new players and start their own gaming groups. Except that we are.

I have nothing against the FLGS. I've spent plenty of time in them over the years and I have one in particular that I use and like. But I do not know how you get to "stores have to charge people for playing space or they're all going to close and then RPG's are going to die out". The FLGS is a cool thing when done well but it is not a necessary thing for RPG's to exist.
 

redrick

First Post
If the customers are there, and it is not losing you money to provide the service, I say good for you! If folks have space to play at home and a reliable player base, that is one thing, but if folks are expecting to play in a public space that is not their home, for free, that's their problem.

Here in New York, space is a premium. Apartments are small and we aren't bathing in spare rooms. My living room with room for a table and chairs is also the room with the TV and the PlayStation, so if I want to invite people over for D&D, my wife is forced to either play with us (which she tolerates) or hide out in the bedroom with a book. Fortunately, another member of our group is usually able to host, but if that weren't possible, I would definitely shell out $10/head for a convenient place to play, especially if it doubled as a way to meet new players and expand our community.
 

redrick

First Post
[MENTION=6802666]scottaroberts[/MENTION], do you mind if I pick your brain a bit on this? We have a store in our neighborhood that I've talked to about providing space for gamers, and I've been wondering what the best way would be to make it really work.

Are most of your customers playing organized play style games (Adventurer's League or Pathfinder Equivalent) that are open to whoever wants to pull up a chair, or are they mostly private with their own game looking for a space to play?

Do you provide any supplies or the like, beyond tables and chairs? Access to miniatures, screens, dungeon tiles, a stack of blank character sheets?
 

aramis erak

Legend
RPGs never seem to make any real money for a store. All FLGS I know make their true money with CCGs and tabletop miniature wargaming. P&P is just an added bonus that is sold incidently, but never comes close to the profit of the other two.

Comics and merchandise usually yield much more than the P&P games. They're really only there because there's shelf-space left and nothing better to fill it.

of the 8 LGS's I have been to in the last 5 years...
1 is a hobbycraft that ignored the national chain's decision to drop RPGs (all the others locally obeyed and closed)
1 is a mom and pop hobby and boardgame store, which has nothing newer than about 2004 in the RPG section.
1 is mixed Sportscards, Comics, Collectables, Board games, card games and roleplaying games with play area, loaner boardgames, and loaner dice
1 is mixed Sportscards, Comics, Collectables, Board games, card games and roleplaying games without play area
2 are mixed Comics, Collectables, Board games, card games and roleplaying games with play area, loaner boardgames, and loaner dice. And some off-the-shelf no-prep snack items.
1 is Mixed games only, one table for play area, and a toxic proprietor.
1 is mixed games, and a restaurant, with play areas and loaner boardgames.

One is decidedly NOT a FLGS.

I run 2 games a week at one of them; used to run 1 a week at a different one. (I moved states, and so, also FLGSs).

I know most of my players couldn't afford $5 a week, and none would afford same. While they spend that much on snacks alone, the snacks are NOT an option to abandon.

And, for me, getting free player time isn't a valuable item. I don't enjoy being a player near as much as GMing a good group.
 

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