D&D 5E Reclassing the 6 attributes

[TBeholder]

This is just for fun, but i wonder what would happen if d&d had the following six attributes:

I'd just add Perception and Luck. In SPECIAL and Warhammer RP it works, and *D&D had annoying amount of roundabout solutions tackled on.
I don't see why splitting Dex would be a good thing, but maybe split melee and ranged attack (again, like in Warhammer d10).

Charisma for example has almost no use for Fighters. They'll never use it. Putting points in it is actively reducing their ability to perform in their class features. BUT if you had the option to take say, a Battlemaster-like class who used swashbuckler-style "panache" based on Charisma to perform tricks, you'd make Charisma into a meaningful choice for some fighters.

BUT if you had the option to take… say, hirelings or followers, Charisma could be the most important stat.
Now guess which class had the first "official" NPC visibly built as a "diplomancer"?

 

[ART!]

Off the top of my head, split Charisma into Looks and Presence?

I'm mostly okay with them as-is, though, especially given how I've accepted just how D&D and particularly 5E gloss over things in the interest of simplicity.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Often the more mechanical options you add the more limited characters you actually allow.

Could elaborate or give an example? You're usually pretty insightful so I suspect you have good evidence, but I'm not seeing/understanding it at face value.

 

[mellored]

It could definitely be nice if every class gained some kind of class benefit for most stats. Or it could be more limiting as well. Often the more mechanical options you add the more limited characters you actually allow.

I agree that it would be more limiting.
If you add Cha based moves, then you would effectively make a Cha based sub-class. No one would mix cha moves and Str moves.

Though perhaps you could reverse it. If you take panache, you get +1 cha. If you take mobility, you get +1 Dex. Also with spells, learning the shield spell gives you +1 Con.

The manuvers would work the same either way, so stats would only applies to your skills.

 

[5ekyu]

This is just for fun, but i wonder what would happen if d&d had the following six attributes:

• strength - (merged str and con)
• dexterity (thieves tools, sleight of hand, finesse and ranged attacks, etc)
• agility (ac, initiative, stealth, acrobatics and saving throws)
• perception (replaces int and all knowledge skills plus perception rolls)
• willpower (saving throws, wis spellcasters, etc)
• cha (same except includes insight)

Characters would be more MAD to be sure. But would they be more interesting?

Alternative framework that i have found to be very manageable in other systems...

PHYSICAl
Strength - power available for physical tasks
Constitution - resistance/endurance available for physical tasks
Dexterity - finesse, precision and quickness available for physical tasks
MENTAL
Intelligence power available for mental tasks
Wisdom resistance/endurance available for mental tasks
Wits finesse, precision and quickness available for mental tasks

They key with these is that the skills/proficiencies bonus would be more like they are with tools - not tied to a given attribute even a little but dependent on the task, circumstance and situation. they should be quite broad in scope because the marriage of skill+attribute would be the real "task"

Now, arguably one could separate out a third set of characteristics for Social (Charisma, Faith, Empathy) is one felt having the social falling under mental to be too off-putting or otherwise distasteful.

As far as magic systems would go this could also allow quite firm differentiation between "learned magic" and "soul magic" (divine or instinctive arcane.)

But giving each "pillar" so-to-speak its own trio of power-finesse-defense opens a lot of very clear, simple and still dynamic choices.

In a 5e specific take:
Add the three social using the DMG options for adding abilities.
Pretty much let saves be defended in each group by the resistance stat.
Pretty much let save DCs be set in each category by the POWER stat.
Pretty much let damage bonuses be based off power.
Pretty much let to-hit and all sorts of finesse abilities rely on the finesse stat. For example, if you have sculpt spell for your fireball, you have to use Finesse not Power for the DC.
The current "charisma casters" use the "social" trio, the existing INT casters use the Smarts trio and its up to the Gm to determine how they want to divide the divines but my initial preference would be to put them under social - covering their strength and conviction as well as their ability to be compelling and convincing. (Though some divines could go the other way - a god of magic might shift the whole trio over to the smarts.)

Arguably you could say CON helps HP" and "Dexterity helps AC" as it currently works without any serious problems. (As well as also perhaps applying that division to the other trios if you wanted to build up more of a "combat sub-system" for those trios.)

 

[Sunseeker]

BUT if you had the option to take… say, hirelings or followers, Charisma could be the most important stat.
Now guess which class had the first "official" NPC visibly built as a "diplomancer"?

A feature that anyone with the right scores can take isn't what I'm talking about. Hirelings aren't a class feature. They're not a defining element of what makes a fighter a fighter.

 

[Sunseeker]

I agree that it would be more limiting.
If you add Cha based moves, then you would effectively make a Cha based sub-class. No one would mix cha moves and Str moves.

Though perhaps you could reverse it. If you take panache, you get +1 cha. If you take mobility, you get +1 Dex. Also with spells, learning the shield spell gives you +1 Con.

The manuvers would work the same either way, so stats would only applies to your skills.

Why would it do that? It sounds like you're just making up how a "panache" fighter would work, and that it would work wrongly and therefore its bad.

This isn't complicated stuff here. Panache works just like the Superiority Die. It adds to what you already have, not replaces. It doesn't deal damage in place of strenght or dex, it adds additional effects to your attack.

 

[mellored]

Why would it do that? It sounds like you're just making up how a "panache" fighter would work, and that it would work wrongly and therefore its bad.

This isn't complicated stuff here. Panache works just like the Superiority Die. It adds to what you already have, not replaces. It doesn't deal damage in place of strenght or dex, it adds additional effects to your attack.

If it has nothing to do with Charisma, then that's fine.


But the topic was making maneuvers for each attribute.
So someone with 20 Cha, would take all the Cha attribute maneuvers.
And someone with 20 Int would take all the Int attribute maneuvers.
You wouldn't have someone with 14 Int and Cha taking some of each maneuver.

Even if they got both an Int based and Cha bsed maneuver, they would allocate stats for whichever one they liked best and use that over and over.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

When discussing atributes it is valuable to look at other game systems.

The Star Wars games from FFG have Brawn, Agility, Intelligence, Cunning, Willpower, Presence. These are paired in three groups: Brawn and Agility are Physical, Intelligence and Cunning are Mental; Willpower and Presence are Social. The first in each pair is a measure of the resources you can bring to bear on a problem, the second is a measure of your ability to use those resources to manipulate the world around you.

For example, Willpower represents centredness, strength of personality, sense of self, ability to resist peer pressure and other social manipulation. Presence represents ability to read body language and understand social situations, as well as the ability to manipulate people using social skills.

Some of the skills are quire interesting if you are coming from D&D. Lock picking is a Cunning skill not an Agility skill, indicating that a devious mind is the most important characteristic. Initiative is either Willpower or Presence, since reading other people's body language to predicting their actions is required to pre-empt those actions.

 

[Sunseeker]

If it has nothing to do with Charisma, then that's fine.


But the topic was making maneuvers for each attribute.
So someone with 20 Cha, would take all the Cha attribute maneuvers.
And someone with 20 Int would take all the Int attribute maneuvers.
You wouldn't have someone with 14 Int and Cha taking some of each maneuver.

Even if they got both an Int based and Cha bsed maneuver, they would allocate stats for whichever one they liked best and use that over and over.

Considering i started the subject i should think i know what the discussion is about. And it wasnt about 4e-style maneuvers with X stat replacing Y stat because in that contzt i agree completely that nothing has fundamentally changed.