D&D 5E Red Flags For Classes In Sources Beyond The Player's Handbook

[Ancalagon]

I think the hexblade is fine IF 2 things are done:

1: it's a single class hexblade, not a "dip" to make a paladin more powerful

2: the character actually plays like a hexblade is "supposed to" - ie a warlock fighting with sword/weapon and shield, not spamming EB.

 

[neogod22]

I'll concede this point. While the very existence of the zealot has made the berserker even worse in comparison, I agree that it's always been a trap.

I understand the reasons that led WotC to choose this approach. I just don't agree with them, personally. I know there were a lot of people that hated the one hundred pages long errata documents of third and fourth editions. I didn't mind them at all, because they improved the game.

Anyway, I'll commend WotC for at least trying to do something about trap options. It's better than nothing.
(And yeah, the hexblade is an entirely different problem. Why they decided to fix blade locks through a mandatory OP patron is beyond me)

Do you guys even play warlocks or are you just arm chair quarterbacking? I almost exclusively play warlocks and I don't see why you guys think hexblades are overpowered. When it comes to multiclassing with paladins, I've already discussed why I would never allow that in another thread. In short, I don't think divine casters should have 2 masters.

 

[Olrox17]

Do you guys even play warlocks or are you just arm chair quarterbacking? I almost exclusively play warlocks and I don't see why you guys think hexblades are overpowered. When it comes to multiclassing with paladins, I've already discussed why I would never allow that in another thread. In short, I don't think divine casters should have 2 masters.

Can't say I play warlocks, but that's because I'm always the DM, and I had my fair share of warlock players. Hexblade is the best patron, at least at low-mid levels. Hands down. Amazing free curse, med armor and shield prof, good spells.

As for the multiclassing bit, I don't see how your house rules are relevant to the discussion. Maybe in my game good wizards have to wear white robes, but so what? That doesn't mean you can't play a wizard in full plate in your game. Let's stick to the RAW.

 

[neogod22]

Can't say I play warlocks, but that's because I'm always the DM, and I had my fair share of warlock players. Hexblade is the best patron, at least at low-mid levels. Hands down. Amazing free curse, med armor and shield prof, good spells.

As for the multiclassing bit, I don't see how your house rules are relevant to the discussion. Maybe in my game good wizards have to wear white robes, but so what? That doesn't mean you can't play a wizard in full plate in your game. Let's stick to the RAW.

You didn't explain how they are overpowered.

 

[neogod22]

Can't say I play warlocks, but that's because I'm always the DM, and I had my fair share of warlock players. Hexblade is the best patron, at least at low-mid levels. Hands down. Amazing free curse, med armor and shield prof, good spells.

As for the multiclassing bit, I don't see how your house rules are relevant to the discussion. Maybe in my game good wizards have to wear white robes, but so what? That doesn't mean you can't play a wizard in full plate in your game. Let's stick to the RAW.

The second thing is, multiclassing is optional, and that being said, if when I'm DMing and say, "no you can't use that combination" I'm still using the RAW, since it is "MY DECISION."

 

[Olrox17]

You didn't explain how they are overpowered.

The hexblade patron is overpowered compared to other warlock patrons at low-mid levels, that's what I'm saying.
Let's compare with the fiend patron:

1st level fiend: gains THP when it personally kills a creature. Not a bad feature, sure.

1st level hexblade: short rest curse that gives bonus damage, improved critical range and heals the warlock when the target dies, regardless who kills it (this feature alone is already arguably better than what fiend gets). Then we add medium armor and shield, which, on average, is a +5 AC compared to a regular warlock. Amazing stuff. Finally, the ability the use charisma with weapons. Essential ability for a melee warlock, still useful even for ranged ones (goes well with booming blade and green flame blade when you're forced into melee).

Hexblade wins by a mile.

The second thing is, multiclassing is optional, and that being said, if when I'm DMing and say, "no you can't use that combination" I'm still using the RAW, since it is "MY DECISION."

Multiclassing is, indeed, an optional rule. As a DM, you can say no multiclassing, or yay multiclassing.
If you say yay multiclassing, but then you disallow a specific multiclass combination, you are house ruling the optional multiclassing rule. Which, btw, is perfectly fine. I house rule a bunch of stuff in my games.
But it's not RAW. it's how you run your own game.

If I decide that multiclass paladin/warlocks have to tithe 10% of their earnings to the church as penalty for their sinful arcane ways, it's not RAW. It's an house rule.

 

[BookBarbarian]

In putting together a Session Zero Payer's Guide, I have been hesitant on what to put in the Allowed Sources list. I know of a couple Red Flags (e.g. the Hexblade, and the Zealot). What classes / subclasses would you put on your 'Not Gonna Happen List'?

The Zealot is not better than an Ancestral Guardian or Totem Warrior Barbarian. In fact it's power peaks much later at a level that most games will never reach.

 

[neogod22]

Not really. See sure they get profiency in medium armor and martial weapons, but martial weapons is pretty moot if you're going pact of the blade. CHA bonus to attacks and damage is cool, but really what does that add up to, 1-2 or difference at best. Sure it's good if you're taking a CHA based race, but again a minor upgrade. So when we get to Hexblade curse, and it's many things of greatness. The bread and butter of the Hexblade, except you can only use it once per short rest, on 1 target. This means you have to be real selective on it's use and anyone who's been playing 5e, will know that most of the time the fights don't last long enough for it to be great the majority of the time.

Sure with medium armor and a shield, they start off with a pretty good AC, but if they also have a weapon in hand, they can't cast spells with somatic and material components unless they take the feat. Even then you need a spell casting focus for most spells which isn't your weapon in most cases. Using AL rules, PHB +1 does not allow you access to SCAG cantrips.

So using PHB + XGTE, because the real sweet spot is the invocations, fiend pact has a better spell list. The medium armor is a minor advantage by the Hexblade that can be negated by race choice. Weapon profiency is a minor advantage at lvl 1&2 only, completely obsolete at lvl 3. Hexblade's Curse, while is very good, 1/short makes it pretty weak.
Dark One's blessing, what you are overlooking are 2 things 1, it can proc with EVERY warlock kill, and 2, it gets stronger as you level. "Hey I need temps, I'm going to EB the 1st small animal I see every morning."
At lvl 6 Hexblade gets a 1/long rest ability, fiend pact gets a 1/short rest ability.

At 10 Hexblade gets an ability that procs off its lvl 1 ability, which means once used, that's 2 abilities gone. Fiend gets an ongoing ability that they can adjust 1/short rest.

At 14 Hexblade ability procs the lvl 1 ability to make it a little more useful in a fight, but still ends at the end of the fight, or earlier if spacing is bad. So it's still a 1/short rest ability. Where as the fiend pact has a 1/short rest ability that causes pretty significant unavoidable damage on top of any other damage they are doing (I.e. Eldritch Smite), oh and if the creature dies, the lvl 1 ability procs. Lol.

 

[The Thrasson]

The second thing is, multiclassing is optional, and that being said, if when I'm DMing and say, "no you can't use that combination" I'm still using the RAW, since it is "MY DECISION."

There are many ways for the GROUP to reach their goals. The DM decides what is the most advantageous route to reach that goal. The DM must make sure that ALL the players have fun. I tell the players how it is before we start. Power gaming and role playing and everything in between will be in play, based on the make up of the party.

 

[Dausuul]

IMHO, when you are comparing balance from PHB to splat books, you don't compare the new class to the closest PHB class. You compare it to the best PHB class. Certain PHB classes are quite simply not good(ie Ranger, Champion Fighter, Berserker Barb), and if you limit powerlevel based on those classes, you're dooming entire archetypes to mediocrity.

People have been making this mistake as long as D&D has been a thing.

Agreed. The hexblade is far better than any other patron for blade pact warlocks; but that's because, before Xanathar's, blade pact was teh suck. Fighter is the proper comparison point for the hexblade, and by that standard, they line up pretty well. Hexblade has a bigger bag of tricks; fighter has more raw DPR.