D&D 5E Let's talk power words!

[Swarmkeeper]

Ok, so I am genuinely curious as to how you guys run things.

1) Do you, as a rule, let the players know the hp of the monsters? I suppose it doesn't say they can't know anywhere in the books, but that's a weak argument; it also doesn't say the PCs can't do a LOT of things. Is there anyone who hates "gamist" type mechanics but who allows HP knowledge for purposes like the PW spell? How do you reconcile that?

2) Do you, as a rule, let the players know how high a monster's save is, or if it has magic resistance? Seems to me that, while not exactly the same as letting players know hp totals, it's definitely on the same spectrum, because it's to prevent a spell just "fizzling."

For myself, the answers are no and no, but maybe I've been doing it wrong?

1) I don't give out the HP numbers, but I do give the players a descriptive sense of when the monster is down to about half and maybe again when down to about 25% and then one more when down to 10 HP or fewer. E.g. "Looking beat up but still hanging tough" then "appears quite bloodied and banged up" then "this thing might be on its last legs".

2) I might allude to a resistance or immunity in my description of the monster, or I might allow an Arcana or Nature check, or I might allow a particular character to just know, or I might reveal nothing and let the PCs discover it during combat as part of the fun. "Fizzling" doesn't have to be a bad thing, it can be a cool part of combat - and they sure as heck will remember it for future reference! Regardless of the situation, I won't give an exact number for the monster's saving throw.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

If you don’t get to know when a creature has less than 100 hp, then it is not a good spell IMO. Doesn’t mean you have to play it that way, do what works for your table. Don’t believe the rules say either way.

Do people feel the same way about Color Spray and Sleep spells or any other HP dependent spell effects? Revealing HP seems too meta-gamey for our table. Sometimes PCs just need to learn by trial and error. Sometimes they need to get creative and suggest a course of action that would allow the DM to call for a Medicine check to (possibly) determine if the target's (or targets') health is at the right level.

 

[jaelis]

Do people feel the same way about Color Spray and Sleep spells or any other HP dependent spell effects? Revealing HP seems too meta-gamey for our table. Sometimes PCs just need to learn by trial and error. Sometimes they need to get creative and suggest a course of action that would allow the DM to call for a Medicine check to (possibly) determine if the target's (or targets') health is at the right level.

Note that color spray and sleep have random hp thresholds, so it's not quite the same. But as noted, I'll give my players an idea whether there's a decent chance they would work.

 

[iserith]

Do you guys normally let your players know how many hp the monsters have? Like, is that a standard rule?

Or is it something specific to the PW spells? Do you believe there's a divination component to the spell that tells you if it'll be effective or something?

AFAICT, specific monster hp is NOT knowledge that players should have, just like that. If a spell needs the player to have that knowledge all of a sudden, maybe that's a cue that the spell isn't great, RAW?

I don't get to know the creature's DEX save before I cast disintegrate, after all...

Even at in-person games, I use Roll20 and reveal the hit point bar. It doesn't say how many hit points the monster has, but you can discern about how many it is after the first bit of damage is done based on how the bar changes.

I think it is reasonable for a player to describe an action to be able to discern a creature's hit points in fictional terms and for the DM to resolve that with an ability check if he or she feels the approach to that goal has an uncertain outcome. That might be recalling lore as to whether a given type of monster might be killed by a PWK spell or trying to perceive whether the creature's vitality is such that the spell would or would not be effective.

 

[CapnZapp]

Do people feel the same way about Color Spray and Sleep spells or any other HP dependent spell effects? Revealing HP seems too meta-gamey for our table. Sometimes PCs just need to learn by trial and error. Sometimes they need to get creative and suggest a course of action that would allow the DM to call for a Medicine check to (possibly) determine if the target's (or targets') health is at the right level.

First off, at the levels where Sleep is relevant the risk of getting a "nothing" result is not large enough for the issue to be a problem: almost every creature described as not much stronger than a regular human will be susceptible to the spell.

Also, it is an area spell. Sure, you might only sleep a single Gnoll or whatever, or you only catch three Stirges instead of the 6 or 7 you were expecting.

But a partial result is much better than no result at all. So PWK being a single-target spell is part of why it's problematic.

Another cause is the very simple fact that a 2nd level caster's action is honestly not worth very much, while a 20th level caster's is.

I think there are too many differences for a straightforward comparison between a L1 spell and a L9 spell to give meaningful results, basically.

 

[Schmoe]

The Power Word spells were certainly more powerful in 1e, and HP inflation since then has made them much less useful as PC options. Going back to the OP, I think it's a nice suggestion as an alternative to simply bumping up the HP thresholds for the spells. I might tweak it slightly, though, as follows:

Power Word: XXX
When this spell is cast, the target is surrounded by a coruscating [color] aura. If at any point between now and the beginning of the caster's next turn the target's HP falls below [threshold], then it is immediately XXX with no save. At the beginning of the caster's next turn, the spell dissipates harmlessly.

So Power Word: Kill would be "If at any point between now and the beginning of the caster's next turn the target's HP falls below 100, then the target immediately dies with no save.

This would make the spells a little bit more tactically interesting, as you could signal to all your buddies to focus fire NOW so that the spell will trigger. It also gives the spells a little bit of oomph against things with strong healing or regenerating abilities, as you can burn the down and then have the spell trigger before the enemy heals back up.

 

[Uller]

Ok, so I am genuinely curious as to how you guys run things.

1) Do you, as a rule, let the players know the hp of the monsters? I suppose it doesn't say they can't know anywhere in the books, but that's a weak argument; it also doesn't say the PCs can't do a LOT of things. Is there anyone who hates "gamist" type mechanics but who allows HP knowledge for purposes like the PW spell? How do you reconcile that?

2) Do you, as a rule, let the players know how high a monster's save is, or if it has magic resistance? Seems to me that, while not exactly the same as letting players know hp totals, it's definitely on the same spectrum, because it's to prevent a spell just "fizzling."

For myself, the answers are no and no, but maybe I've been doing it wrong?

I use roll20 and healthbars...so the players know how much damage they have done and how damaged a monster is. They can figure out the rest.

When not using roll20 I use the 4e "bloodied" condition and will tell the players when a monster is on its last legs. When they hit the first few times I give some indication how much a hit hurts it so they can make reasonable guesses and Im not going to let them waste a spell.

It seems to me that for PCs PWK is a way around legendary resistance, magic resistance and damage immunities....the monster is wounded and you want to finish it off before it gets to use its awesome high damage attack again and you want a guarantee..."PWK: For when it absolutely positively must be killed right now."

For NPCs using it against PCs, it is particularly potent....especially those PCs that neglected to have CON as a good stat.

Yes...revivify can bring them back...hopefully the paladin or cleric hasn't already used that spell slot up on something else. Just because PCs CAN spend a resource to counter something doesn't mean they will have that resource available...that's kind of the point of resource depletion through adventuring.

 

[Satyrn]

Ok, so I am genuinely curious as to how you guys run things.

1) Do you, as a rule, let the players know the hp of the monsters? I suppose it doesn't say they can't know anywhere in the books, but that's a weak argument; it also doesn't say the PCs can't do a LOT of things. Is there anyone who hates "gamist" type mechanics but who allows HP knowledge for purposes like the PW spell? How do you reconcile that?

2) Do you, as a rule, let the players know how high a monster's save is, or if it has magic resistance? Seems to me that, while not exactly the same as letting players know hp totals, it's definitely on the same spectrum, because it's to prevent a spell just "fizzling."

For myself, the answers are no and no, but maybe I've been doing it wrong?

1. I openly track monster hp, counting down to 0, so my players can always know this info if they bother to look. I do it to lessen my "work." Since the players can see just as well as me how hurt every monster is, I don't have to bother describing their state. My players can use their imagination instead of mine to pucture that bit of the scene.

2. If a player spends some effort to figure it out, then I'll tell them what they want to know. I also describe some things in terms of the DC. Like, when a player looks at a cliff face to judge his ability to climb it, I might say "it's a rough face, an easy thing to climb in your spare time, DC 10." By giving the DC, I'm trying to cement my description in terms the player understands so he can translate it into what his character sees, making sure we're on the same page.

 

[iserith]

On the side matter of magic resistance or the like, I do make an effort to telegraph that in the lead-up to the challenge or in its setup. I think any special attacks, traits, resistances, immunities, etc. are important to telegraph in some way to avoid gotchas. When I'm reading a stat block, I'm thinking of ways to describe the environment such that I'm embedding clues as to these. It sets up fair challenges and forces me to be better at description.

 

[dave2008]

As a way to make this spell more competitive from a player's POV, this has some merit.

But again, no such effort can be considered complete without offering a designer's comment on how this affects mid- to high-level gameplay in any campaign where the DM gives access to the spell to NPC/monster casters.

In short: these changes mean that the PCs will never "outgrow" the effect.

Good point - that is why I generally stay away from the PC side of things That being said, I think the general concept is fine, but maybe I raised the HP thresholds to much.

Your word of power sets up a vibration within the target, lasting until the end of its next turn. If the target is currently having, or is reduced to, 150 hit points or below at any moment during the duration, it is instantly slain.

I like where this is going, a little more elegant then what I came up with. I might simplify to:

Your word of power sets up a vibration within the target, lasting until the end of its next turn. If the target is at 150 hit points or less at any moment during the duration, it is instantly slain.