Criticals and double dice

[CapnZapp]

I want to find the definite rules reference for the rule that you double the damage dice of a critical, but not any other damage caused by the attack.

I am not contesting the actual fact. Sneak dice doubles, poison does not. That's not in question.

But what rule says it is so? What reference, errata or Sage Advice states clearly that there are kinds of damage that does not double on a crit?

Kindly,
Zapp

PS. I've scoured the net but no luck.

There's this:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/quest...e-save-for-half-damage-part-of-a-critical-hit

that addresses exactly this issue. However, it's marked as a "duplicate" of other, not as exact, queries.

Also, this:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/quest...ns-of-doubling-damage-on-crit-instead-of-doub

It drives me crazy that they only discuss the issue as if people doubling the damage only double the dice sum. To me, before you can even begin to discuss the subtleties (=variance is bad for player characters) you need to adress the basic fact you can't just roll for damage and then double that - criticals do not double ability modifiers, magical bonus and the like - they only double the dice!

Also, this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD5e/comments/4d4q84/arrow_of_slaying_and_critical_hits/

It irks me to no end how quickly Reddit posts get locked. This is the only forum post I have found that discusses my exact query, and I can't even respond to the very unsatisfactory reply!

 

[CapnZapp]

In short, since Arrow of Slaying specifies "extra" damage, should I take that as damage that doubles on a crit?

It is clearly not "follow-up" damage, or "secondary" damage. (As poison delivered by the arrow would be).

Where is the rule that uneqivocally states that if damage is gated behind a save it is not doubled?

 

[Simonb1]

Hi CapnZapp,

PHB, pg 196 Critical Hits Paragraph.

 

[CapnZapp]

Hi CapnZapp,

PHB, pg 196 Critical Hits Paragraph.

Thank you for your good-faith reply but of course I have read that passage.

 

[CapnZapp]

For those of you who might think this is a strange question to ask, let me go into detail exactly why it's so frustrating to get only non-answers.

Here's the PHB:

C r i t i c a l H it s
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice
for the attack’s damage against the target. Roll all o f the
attack’s damage dice twice and add them together. Then
add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play,
you can roll all the damage dice at once.
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger,
roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add
your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other
damage dice, such as from the rogue’s Sneak Attack
feature, you roll those dice twice as well.

Nowhere is "attack’s damage dice" or "other damage dice" actually defined.

Where does it say poison dice isn't doubled? How about the difference between a DMG poison and the inherent poison damage from a Drow: while the first is gated behind a saving throw the second is not? The question isn't "does the second damage get double while the first is not?" The question is: what, specific, rule passage do you claim for making your answer?

And what about items that deliver extra piercing damage (such as Arrows of Slaying)? How can you justify this being not doubled simply because it's gated behind a save, when the rules never actually talk about this? You can't very well argue it's secondary damage - in the case of poison, yes, but this is just more piercing damage? How is that unlike sneak damage, which does get doubled?

Sage Advice does its best to avoid answering the question each time it gets asked. Even Stackexchange manages to claim the question is answered without actually providing an answer (see links above).

 

[BluejayJunior]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/04/2...divine-smite-how-many-damage-rolls-are-there/
Does this answer your question?
Essentially, only attacks can critically hit. An attack is defined in game terms as anything with an attack roll. Something with a saving throw cannot critically hit. Any damage that is added to an attack, per the rules, is doubled. If the extra damage only occurs due to a failed saving throw, it is not doubled, since it did not have an attack roll (though the saving throw was triggered by an attack).

 

[jaelis]

For those of you who might think this is a strange question to ask, let me go into detail exactly why it's so frustrating to get only non-answers.

Here's the PHB:


Nowhere is "attack’s damage dice" or "other damage dice" actually defined.

Where does it say poison dice isn't doubled? How about the difference between a DMG poison and the inherent poison damage from a Drow: while the first is gated behind a saving throw the second is not? The question isn't "does the second damage get double while the first is not?" The question is: what, specific, rule passage do you claim for making your answer?

And what about items that deliver extra piercing damage (such as Arrows of Slaying)? How can you justify this being not doubled simply because it's gated behind a save, when the rules never actually talk about this? You can't very well argue it's secondary damage - in the case of poison, yes, but this is just more piercing damage? How is that unlike sneak damage, which does get doubled?

Sage Advice does its best to avoid answering the question each time it gets asked. Even Stackexchange manages to claim the question is answered without actually providing an answer (see links above).

Are you specifically asking about damage resulting from a saving throw which is itself triggered by an attack? That seems to be the common point of your examples.

If that is the question, I'm not aware of anything in the rules that addresses it. It sounds like most people interpret an effect that carries its own save as separate from the attack itself. That seems logical to me, if it were actually damage from the attack then it should be dealt on a hit, period, since that's how attacks work.

But I would put this in the category of DM ruling.

 

[Jester David]

It would help if you could also say where you are getting the idea that poison is not doubled.

 

[Istbor]

That is how I have ruled it thus far.

Crit with a dagger with save or bad stuff poison = 2d4 + 2d6 (sneak attack), roll for save.

Crit with a dagger coated in pure damage poison = 2d4 + 2d6 (sneak attack) + 2d8 (Painful poison of pain).

 

[CapnZapp]

It would help if you could also say where you are getting the idea that poison is not doubled.

Good point.

By "poison" I mean things that trigger a Con save for additional damage.

I don't have a RAW reference for that. But Sage Advice seems to be clear that's the case (though without explaining exactly what rule that leads to this conclusion).

(If poison are to be doubled, I'm even more confused.)