Comfort withcross gender characters based on your gender

Comfort with cross gender characters based on your gender

  • I am male and am uncomfortable with cross gender characters

    Votes: 46 11.8%
  • I am male and am indifferent to cross gender characters

    Votes: 108 27.8%
  • I am male and am comfortable with cross gender characters

    Votes: 214 55.0%
  • I am female and am uncomfortable with cross gender characters

    Votes: 2 0.5%
  • I am female and am indifferent to cross gender characters

    Votes: 2 0.5%
  • I am female and am comfortable with cross gender characters

    Votes: 17 4.4%

Status
Not open for further replies.

Riley37

First Post
You don't need to know what the Queen in chess actually looks like. Only how it can move on the board.

That depends on what each of us wants from TRPG. You, with your goals, don't have that need. But you have no authority on what Hussar wants and needs, nor on what I want and need.

If Hussar's fullest enjoyment of TRPG includes visualization of the party, and not just treating them as abstract statblocks, then I wish Hussar luck in finding fellow gamers who are willing to play with that level of detail and visualization. If he enjoys D&D better with a hand-drawn illustration of each PC, then that too is his way. If you do not share his way, then leave it to him, but don't tell him what he does or doesn't need from gaming, eh?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Bagpuss

Legend
The homophobic makers of wedding cakes have been compelled to accept and make cakes for gays.

That recently got overturned in the Supreme Court.

Supreme Court rules for Colorado baker in same-sex wedding cake case - although the ruling was very narrow and doesn't set a precedent. Gay wedding cake ruling reaffirms that businesses can't discriminate something along the lines of an Artist (which the cake decorator in this case is) cannot be forced to make something they object to.

And from the gaming 'news' media (I know redundant, they mostly are part of the CNTRL Left). Just google "the witcher no blacks".

I think what they had from the media was mild compared to Kingdom Come Deliverance.
 

Bagpuss

Legend
This thread is 13 years old. The post I responded to pointed out that we’ve had @150 new posts this year, with a fair bit of...heat.

But unless someone noted the poll totals before those new posts, we have no idea whether or not the results in this thread’s polls have shifted any. And if they did, in which direction.

Doh! Missed this was a case of thread necromancy. Perhaps we should have a fresh poll, although I think we could do with some better worded questions.

Still not sure what you meant by retrenchment in this instance, and what evidence there is for it.
 

evileeyore

Mrrrph
I don't know what your most northern of the north looks like, but, it sure as hell isn't white.
I... eh... what?

You don't consider the Nords to be white? By the time of Lovecraft and Howard, Thule was pretty much considered to be Norway (versus earlier accounts putting it more towards Greenland or Iceland).

Well, if you're going to hew true to Howard and Lovecraft, then you should be ready to take some pushback for a lack of inclusivity. Both are known for some pretty rabid racism.
I'll grant you that.

Yes, because we shouldn't ever make any criticism ever of anything because someone likes it? Seriously? We aren't supposed to vote with our wallets at all?
That's not what I said at all, but thanks for the strawman. I said "make what you want, don't demand others change their product to suit you".

And definitely vote with your wallet. You did, and that means more products that are mostly "images of steely thewed white dudes with their shirts off...". I mean you bought it right?


And mea culpa: I missed this line in your previous post "It includes a major city state which is primarily peopled by black humans."

I'm going to guess (hope) that the one black dude was in the same section detailing the black city state? Were the white dudes all flexing in sections detailing white dude city-states?

After all, in Primeval Thule, a significant percentage of the population of Thule IS BLACK.
What's the population percentage? Eight white city-state/nations to one black city-state/nation? Hundreds?

... black individuals in the setting which are not, other than a single image out of hundreds, represented at all in any of the books.
Is it dozens of images or hundreds? Earlier you claimed 'one out of dozens' across 273 pages. But if each page ('hungreds') has an image... and I expect Black Nation takes more than one page to discuss... then yeah, I can see your point.




That recently got overturned in the Supreme Court.

Supreme Court rules for Colorado baker in same-sex wedding cake case - although the ruling was very narrow and doesn't set a precedent. Gay wedding cake ruling reaffirms that businesses can't discriminate something along the lines of an Artist (which the cake decorator in this case is) cannot be forced to make something they object to.
Neat. I've been ignoring politics since the election as hard as I can.

I think what they had from the media was mild compared to Kingdom Come Deliverance.
Agreed. I just didn't want to discuss them as that would mean mentioning Daniel Vavra and things could turn ugly fast.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
Regarding the games (KC and Witcher): Based on the demographics of medieval europe, they had reasons to both add or omit non-white characters. Adding one or two PoC doesn't change your statistics that much, even if 99.9% of all medieval polish/boehmian people were white. Especially if you could customize your PC... why not give the player the choice to play as a moor? Or, heck, why not give the player the choice to play as a woman?

Regarding statistics, I had to laugh a lot about the "almost all Germans are white" perception. Err, no. Not in urban areas. True, we don't have as many black people as other countries, but we do have a lot of other people with a darker skin color.
I did look up Poland as well and even they have a fair amount of romanic people, as well as armenians, turks and chinese people.

Regarding the cultural baggage: By this I mean I don't import the colonial history of black-skinned people into my worlds. There might be colonialism, or aspects thereof, but in a wholly different context. Same thing with prejudices and biases. Some Minotaur tribes might not get along with their Hobgoblin neighbors because they think of them as stupid barbarians. I also free my worlds of any underlying idea of assumed patriarchy as default. This doesn't mean there are no male-dominated or female-dominated cultures out there. But if I add these aspects, then they are deliberate design choices.
 

Bagpuss

Legend
Those are some fascinating links. Especially the People of Color in European Art. Interesting stuff.

There evidence that the Roman's had an 500 strong African Legion stationed at Hadrian's Wall. Certainly by the medieval period there were many people of African decent in Europe. Ethiopia had embassies in Spain, France and Italy by the late medieval period, which implies there was probably enough contact to and interests to support them prior to that.

I think there is enough evidence that if you want to include a PoC in any historical RPG set in Europe you can probably come up with an excuse for it.

I recently (Nov last year), had some discussion with Neil Gow the author of Duty and Honour (a great little RPG set during the Napoleonic Wars), he is planning on a 2nd Edition, and was thinking about how to make it more inclusive. His initial post was about having a sort of optional Alternative History mode where you could have female red coats and the like. Now you might think Pineapple on every pizza! But remember it is optional, and besides I pointed out it doesn't need to be alternate history to be inclusive.

While you might think of the Napoleonic British army as all white men, actually Black British soldiers fought at many battles, and women weren't just camp followers, women cross dressed to fight along side men in British Army. There are also historical accounts of people that transitioned from male to female. So if you have a player that wants to play whatever sex or ethnicity they want you just need to use a little imagination. I think basically give the GM suggestions for how to be more inclusive, be it the character being an exception the to general rule (as heroes often are), or going full alternative history is the way to go.

History isn't as straight and white as it tended to be taught or portrayed, I think it is great designers are thinking about being inclusive in this sort of way. While at the same time I'm still concerned that some elements of the RPG community would probably want to remove images like the Dragon covers Thomas Bowman for being too revealing. Can't we have room for both? Pineapple and more traditional toppings?
 
Last edited:

Riley37

First Post
Unless, as is the case, those 'smug in their righteousness' are trying to make it illegal, or at least socially unacceptable, to make a pizza without pineapple.

You say that as if I had not already raised the same point, in the same post, a few lines away. Also as if I hadn't referenced the J.S. Mills essay "On Liberty" several times, on EN World, in the last month or two. "illegal" and "socially unacceptable" are both significant and they are NOT the same thing, nor is it merely a difference of degree.

The homophobic makers of wedding cakes have been compelled to accept and make cakes for gays.

That indeed answers my question of a real-world example. Whether that's a good thing or bad thing is a topic of ongoing debate. There has also been debate about "right to refuse service to anyone" on the axis of race; there was a time when a black person driving from, say, Chicago to San Francisco, might experience difficulty if no one along the way would sell fuel or food to anyone black. IMO answers to such questions on the axis of race are often, but not always, useful precedents for parallel questions on the axis of sexuality. But before we go much further into the details, remember that this is a multi-national discussion, run from Canada, and the rulings of courts in the USA are not everyone's context.

You do realize that when you're discussing a population percentage of less than 0.01% it is okay to say 'none'? As in, statistically speaking, there were no blacks in Poland during the late medieval and early renaissance.... <snip> This means, it's okay to make a game set in fantasy (or even historic) Poland with no blacks. Further, The Witcher is specifically about Polish culture and folklore... so even if the percentage were to be a whopping whole 1%, it would still be okay to exclude them from game. Further more, the game is based on the books... so...they stayed true to the source.

Two points, A and B.

(A) The storyline of Witcher series is not, in its own words, set in a Poland or Poland-analogue which is somehow isolated from the rest of humanity.
Letho: "Nah, had it with these swamps. Need a change of scenery. Zerrikania, maybe?"
Geralt: "I've heard they have striped horses there."

Striped horses, hunh? Gee, where are there animals which one might describe as "striped horses"? Is it a place where Bad Guys come from, such as Azar Javed? That's a Persian name. I guess Zerrikania is "everywhere south or southeast of Poland, and non-Poles are all the same to me." If a Turk or Roma wandered into historical Poland, would they become a Zerrikanian in The Witcher? Is it true that the only good Zerrikanian is a dead Zerrikanian? (shrug) That's an artistic decision, and since I don't want censorship of "Custer's Revenge", I also don't want censorship of The Witcher.

(B) Whether it's ethical for Poles to decide "only Poles count as characters in the story of our nation", is debatable. It echoes the direct parallel of Germany deciding that only Aryan Germans count as characters in the story of their nation, which became German policy in the 1930s. Ethnic cleansing followed from that decision, as inevitably as night follows day. Some Poles supported, and others resisted, German enforcement of that policy in Poland. That is, some Poles told the Reich where to find Turks, Roma, Jews, Ethiopians and other non-Poles, while other Poles helped such people hide. It is currently illegal, in Poland, to publicly name the Poles who actively participated in that process. So, to answer your question exactly as asked: no, I do NOT realize that it's okay to treat 1% or .1% or .01% as zero, in a nation where *actual conversion to zero* is a few generations in the past, a nation which legally prohibits a full discussion of that past. The difference between "there are very few of us" and "there are NONE of us" matters more, to the families involved, than it matters to you. I *still* don't want government censorship of The Witcher.

Yes. CDPR has been the victim of a campaign of hate from the CNTRL Left.

I keep raising, and you keep ignoring, the distinction between "people expressing their opinions in editorials, reviews, or social media posts" versus "harassment by methods such as death threats, rape threats, hacking the target's accounts or websites, and/or doxxing the target's personal information." Do you see symmetry between how the harshest people on the Left treat CD Projekt, versus how the harshest people on the Right treat targets such as Leslie Jones, Felicia Day, or more recently, Kelly Marie Tran?

Imagine if someone made the game When We Kings, set in mythic Wakanda and some 'woke' person came along and complained "But where are all the Hispanics!"

Okay, I imagined that. I would respond: the movie "Black Panther" DIRECTLY ADDRESSES THAT AS A MORAL QUESTION. Wakandans turn away any Hispanics who show up on the border, and prevent them from passing through the non-rural parts of Wakanda, such as the capital city. Anyone who asks such a question, isn't literally "woke"; he must have slept through the multiple scenes in which T'Challa explicitly discusses whether this policy is necessary and ethical. Duh. Where in Andrzej Sapkowski's stories does Geralt discuss the existence and status of non-Polish humans, in such direct terms, and as a moral issue?

But don't demand all [-]pizza[/-] has to have [-]pineapple[/-] your PoC of choice [-]on[/-] in it.

Indeed, I make no such *demands*. There's no gorram way a penny's gonna go from my pocket, to the publisher of a game with an ethno-nationalist storyline; "never forget, never again" runs deep in my values; but that's my personal choice.

So when you say that there's "a campaign of hate from the CNTRL Left", to what extent does that campaign include death threats, rape threats, hacking the target's accounts or websites, and/or doxxing anyone's personal information?
 
Last edited:

Bagpuss

Legend
Especially if you could customize your PC... why not give the player the choice to play as a moor?

Because it raises a whole lot of issues, if part of your goal is historical accuracy. A moor would most likely be treated differently by the NPCs than a white man in the same situation, same with a woman.

You need to record a whole load of extra dialogue, and produce a lot more art assets, it's not as simple as just changing the skin tone.

Or, heck, why not give the player the choice to play as a woman?

I think that is planned as free DLC for Kingdom Come. Because you know how a woman would be treated completely differently by society at that time, thus it needs to be a completely different storyline, it isn't just a case of reskinning the character model, so it takes time and more money.

Now in a fantasy setting where racism and sexism don't exist then year go ahead and just change the skin tone add a few art assets for women, and you are probably good to go. Only that isn't the case because black skin needs lighting differently than white skin, African and Asian facial features aren't the same European facial features, so it isn't as simple as adding a skin tone slider.

Or you know you can really it like FarCry 5, where even when you can play as a woman some of the voice lines continue to use male pronouns for you.

Added a female character or a different race costs money (thankfully for most games not much), but to do it well will cost even more, especially for story and character driven games where who the character is matters, in fantasy MMO's and games that really are just an excuse to get a multiplayer shooter out then not so much since there isn't tons of dialogue to rerecord.

Thankfully in tabletop RPGs we don't need to worry about these budgetary things as it is "theater of the mind".
 



Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top