Comfort withcross gender characters based on your gender

[Dannyalcatraz]

13 years ago. This thread came, and a solid majority said they had no issue. A good 60 posts were made and discussion died.
Now. A good 150 posts in a week and the number of uncomfortable people has increased as gender is suddenly a disputed topic.

How the did the D&D community move backwards in terms of gender politics?!?

The retrenchment is society wide, not just in gaming.

Some of us like to think our community is better than society at large, but we’ve shown time and time again we are not.

 

[evileeyore]

Does that really put you off playing someone that doesn't share your own gender/ethnic/sexuality identity?

I've seen it. People who would otherwise be 'indifferent' when someone else is doing something can become 'uncomfortable' when they feel they've been pushed to far and "now it's time to push back!" And it isn't a "let's just push this back to where I'm personally 'indifferent'" it's "Let's push this back to where I'm personally 'comfortable'".

Extreme example:

Let's look at pizza. I'm not fond of [-]heresy[/-] pineapple on my pizza, but I don't care what you put on yours. I'm not eating it, right?

But when the purists come around and demand that everyone's pizza has to be [-]equally diverse[/-] have pineapple? Nope. Now I don't want anyone to have pineapple on there pizza, 'cuase if even one pizza has pineapple, they all have to pineapple, right?


And ya, I know you get it Bagpuss, but your's was a good comment to jump off from.

No one whose voice reached your ears.

What part of "I mean they kind of always tried, but now there are enough of them, in positions of power in media and other arenas, that it's an untenable thing." to you didn't mean "Yes, there were always voices, now however..."

Also, your still ignoring what I'm saying. I'm not saying "there were never progressives pushing for change". I'm saying "now you tow their extreme line or they come for you and can actually come for you".

Example: CDPR makes a game basically set in late 15th to 16th century Poland (The Witcher). And the Ideological Purists took them to task because the game is a 'whitey fest'. As in, there are no blacks.

Which... you know... time period - game setting... there were almost 0 blacks in 15th-16th century Poland. But that doesn't matter to the Ideological Purists! Enforced Diversity Quotas Have To Be Met!

"or the ideologues come for you" - That happens both ways.

Yes it does. And I dislike it when it's the Evangelical Right as well. Just because it's the CNTRL Left in power right now, doesn't make me happy though.

IMO that's a overly dramatic, threatening description.

Only to you, because the censorship board isn't likely to come for you. Yet. Just wait until your ideology isn't pure enough.

if you object to people with MLK's ideology gaining "positions of power in media and other arenas"...

I wish they had MLK's idealogy. They don't. They don't want equality.

I'm writing more for anyone in the middle. For anyone who shares my hope that what Delany wrote in 1997 about science fiction, will someday no longer be true about D&D.

That's not the 'middle'. That's really left of center. Which is fine, but don't mistake your position as "one of the middle ground between progressivism and regressivism" or even Left and Right.

I'm very Left of center and your a bit more left of me.

The retrenchment is society wide, not just in gaming.

Like I say above, you push someone too far and they don't just want to go back to where they started, but a bit further back to make breathing room.

Some of us like to think our community is better than society at large, but we’ve shown time and time again we are not.

I've never understood why anyone would think one group of humans were intrinsically better behaved than another.

 

[Bagpuss]

The retrenchment is society wide, not just in gaming.

Erm, my post shows not much has changed over the years, if anything comparing the polls shows a slightly greater acceptance of cross-gender play.

So I'm not sure what you mean by retrenchment? Most of the people who are against it seem to be against it for pretty valid reasons.

 

[Umbran]

Always glad to help. Although I'm sure there is an 'unblock' button too.

Yes, the user can remove a block if they so choose.

Next time, please do *NOT* act to circumvent a block. If someone actively chooses to not see content from another user, there's a reason for it - and if you act to specifically get around the block, you are becoming complicit in that interaction. In the general case, you may be helping one user to harass another, which is not cool.

So, next time, don't do it. Thanks.

 

[Bagpuss]

And ya, I know you get it Bagpuss, but your's was a good comment to jump off from.

That's fine, I understand what you mean.

Like I say above, you push someone too far and they don't just want to go back to where they started, but a bit further back to make breathing room.

I'm not sure that's whats happening, I would think if people have become more wary of roleplaying other people's genders/race/ethnicity then it might be because they could get called out for not being sensitive enough. Can you imagine the reaction of a white man RP'ing a black woman in some circles? Who do you think they will get a bigger backlash from?

I've never understood why anyone would think one group of humans were intrinsically better behaved than another.

Tribalism? We are the good guys, don't trust those other ones.

Still you would hope in a hobby that involves empathy to some extent, roleplaying another character, you'd see a bit more understanding.

 

[Lylandra]

I'm not sure that's whats happening, I would think if people have become more wary of roleplaying other people's genders/race/ethnicity then it might be because they could get called out for not being sensitive enough. Can you imagine the reaction of a white man RP'ing a black woman in some circles? Who do you think they will get a bigger backlash from?

I'm not so sure. Unless he portrayed that black woman in a really off-putting way, I don't think he'd get much backlash. And I agree that RPing is a great way to improve empathy and understanding of other groups.

You cannot really accuse that white guy of whitewashing, for example, because he isn't taking a real black woman's spot. He isn't erasing her possible representation like in a movie or TV show. Instead, he is adding diversity and, in the best case, trying to put himself in some other person's shoes.

Okay, in terms of fantasy we'd rather not have negative cultural baggage (and, at least in my worlds, there are seldom conflicts of people based on their skin color), but I actually enjoy playing a character from a (fantasy) culture that's much different from my own (european who's been subjected to castles and dungeons and stuff since childhood because they are literally everywhere).

 

[Bagpuss]

I'm not so sure. Unless he portrayed that black woman in a really off-putting way, I don't think he'd get much backlash.

Even 5 years ago I would agree with you. Since then we've had white authors warned off writing black characters, people attacked online for hairstyles and hoop earrings, or trying on a on a kimono in a museum, or wearing a cheongsam to prom, and ridiculous claims of "Digital Blackface". Already you are seeing more articles about cultural appropriation related to published RPGs. I don't think it has negatively affected the hobby as yet, and I'm all for the new art direction and more inclusive style D&D is going with, but you shouldn't be fearful of playing with other cultures.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Erm, my post shows not much has changed over the years, if anything comparing the polls shows a slightly greater acceptance of cross-gender play.

So I'm not sure what you mean by retrenchment? Most of the people who are against it seem to be against it for pretty valid reasons.

This thread is 13 years old. The post I responded to pointed out that we’ve had @150 new posts this year, with a fair bit of...heat.

But unless someone noted the poll totals before those new posts, we have no idea whether or not the results in this thread’s polls have shifted any. And if they did, in which direction.

 

[evileeyore]

Can you imagine the reaction of a white man RP'ing a black woman in some circles? Who do you think they will get a bigger backlash from?

While my knee-jerkism is "Well granted! [Insert Rant About Ideological Ethno-Purists]!" I'm not so sure.

So far everyone piping up in thread defending the 'uncomfortable' angle has been from the "I've seen it only done poorly" camp, not so much the "I fear it'll be done poorly"* or even the "No Cultural† Appropriation!" camp.



* Though I've literally heard that excuse at the table. "Well... I've never seen it done well and I don't think you can, so no." And then later it became, "Well, okay, but only because you've proven me wrong about Kender..."

† If sex/gender can be considered a 'culture', which I've heard compelling arguments for.

Okay, in terms of fantasy we'd rather not have negative cultural baggage...

"We"? ',:|

I think you mean "drag real world negative cultural baggage into game"... and then I disagree within some genres. But yeah, in my generic fantasy games I don't import Real World baggage. I create it in the game to fit the races and cultures that exist in the setting (and yes in [-]a few[/-] most cases I do cheat a bit, but I file off the serial numbers).

 

[Riley37]

And it isn't a "let's just push this back to where I'm personally 'indifferent'" it's "Let's push this back to where I'm personally 'comfortable'"....
<snip>
Now I don't want anyone to have pineapple on there pizza, 'cuase if even one pizza has pineapple, they all have to pineapple, right?

This metaphor isn't reaching me. Okay, so someone - presumably, someone smug in the righteousness of their ideology, I'm familiar with *that* on both right and left - demands pineapple on all pizza. This is annoying, but not actually a problem, because if *you* order the pizza, you remain free to order pizza which doesn't have pineapple on it. If you're not ordering the pizza, then it's not your decision. If the Pineapple Purists use the authority of the government to *compel* pizzerias to always apply pineapple, *then* there's a problem. Do you have a version of the metaphor which includes the distinction between people expressing an opinion, and people actually constraining someone's behavior?

Real-world example: video game The Witcher. There are people who object to its in-game depiction of race. (You say there were no black people in Poland at the time, as if that were a well-established historical fact. There are some historians who disagree, see note below.) You can still buy The Witcher, you can still play it. Is someone harassing people who play The Witcher? One of Larry Correia's fans recently raised the question, on Correia's site, of how to harass Green Ronin at Origins; is anyone doing anything like that to CD Projekt? Is anyone treating them the way Team Milo treated Leslie Jones?

What part of "I mean they kind of always tried, but now there are enough of them, in positions of power in media and other arenas, that it's an untenable thing." to you didn't mean "Yes, there were always voices, now however..."

In answer to your question, as specifically as I can: the part in question, is the part where you also said "no one got upset". If you could establish an internally consistent position, perhaps we could have a more useful exchange of ideas?

Only to you, because the censorship board isn't likely to come for you. Yet. Just wait until your ideology isn't pure enough.

If you have any interest in persuading me - or if not me, perhaps others less stubborn than me - then stop mixing metaphor and fact; use both, if you like, but with clean separation between them. I am aware of *censorship*, as such, in the literal sense, in the USA, mainly in the form of legally mandated limitations of who can sell video games to minors, according to mandatory ratings. (Does the same apply in Canada?) I oppose those limits. I have a strong personal *opinion* about games such as Custer's Revenge (in which the goal is to have the white male avatar rape as many Native women as possible), but I don't want the government *censoring* Custer's Revenge. I want to persuade people not to buy Custer's Revenge; I don't want to use force, neither personally nor by a proxy with a badge and a gun. I haven't formed an opinion on The Witcher, but I want at least as much lassez-faire for The Witcher as for Custer's Revenge.

I wish they had MLK's idealogy. They don't. They don't want equality.

Wait, are you seriously accusing Samuel Delany, or Gene Roddenberry, or more recently John Scalzi and GRR Martin (major opponents of Sad/Rabid Puppies), or anyone at WotC or Paizo, of black supremacism?

Footnote: how white Medieval Europe was, and also Britain, across a range of terrain (Iberia to Poland) and centuries (13th != 15th). So on one hand, you've probably grown up with all-white imagery. Well, I grew up mostly seeing depictions of Moses as white, but knowing what I know now, I am skeptical of the imagery which formed my early conceptions, and I apply that skepticism retroactively and broadly. I mean, it's not an *accident* that so many people depict Moses as pale-skinned and sometimes even blue-eyed. (I don't know *for sure* whether his eyes or skin were brown; I'm just saying, I question the biases of those who chose to "fill in the blank" with white Moses, and same for The Witcher. Anyone who says, from their personal experience, "Germans are almost entirely white" - well, that's true, but if their perceptions of whether exceptions are rare, or merely uncommon, then they should perhaps consider the possibility that *the frequency of those exceptions changed in the 1930s and 1940s.* What they've seen personally is not how it's always been.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codesw...ying-glass-to-the-brown-faces-in-medieval-art

https://www.historians.org/publicat...lems-in-studying-the-role-of-blacks-in-europe