The final word on DPR, feats and class balance

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The main premise is that many archetypes aren't effective because they don't do enough damage. Most of this thread (and it's "sister" thread "What makes Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter so good?" ) is arguing that some builds aren't "viable" because they don't keep up on damage. Why else would there be arguments about whether or not a PC specializing in daggers can be viable?*
I think it's because the definition of "viable" is dependent on whether you're the type of player who builds their character towards a function, or towards a concept.

The OP is the former ("I want to try playing a primary damage dealer this game, fighter, rogue, barbarian all would fit. A knife thrower would be cool...yea, but there aren't really any good feats or subclasses for that concept, should probably go back to a ranged SS build."), and it sounds like you're the latter ("Hmm, I want to play a halfling knife thrower...rogue seems like it would fit, I like popping out of the shadows and throwing a knife in the monster's back.) I, personally, am definitely in the former camp, so I have more sympathy than most for the OP's position. Unlike the OP, though, I'm perfectly happy to homebrew or use something I found online that best fits my desired function (and I'm fortunate enough to have DMs who accommodate me.)
 

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pemerton

Legend
The main premise is that many archetypes aren't effective because they don't do enough damage.
And that's not a claim that DPR is king. It's a claim about the failure of those archetypes to contribute to play in their main dimension of (possible) contribution.

If someone (you? some other posters?) think that the main contribution a fighter makes to the game is not damage, or some other combat function (like damage soaking or avoidance) that is at least commensurable with damage, then run the argument! I think it could be interesting.

But that potentially interesting argument isn't advanced by trying to rebut a claim (purely hypothetical in this thread) that DPR is more important than anything else.

(Katharine Kerr tackled this issue in an article in Dragon #95, whcn she tried to address the role of fighters in an extension to the XP system designed to reward non-dungeon-exploratory play. But I'm not sure here approach in the 1st ed AD&D context would still work in the 5e environment. Eg she assumed that a fighter would be the best in the party at intimidation. In 5e there's a good chance that's not true.)

I think it's because the definition of "viable" is dependent on whether you're the type of player who builds their character towards a function, or towards a concept.
I see the heyday of the "concept:" approach as 2nd ed AD&D, although it certainly seems to be on he upswing at present, and I'm guessing quite a bit of PF play must focus on it also (hence a good part of the enthusiasm for the range of options (= concepts, in this context) that PF supports).

I know three main ways of approaching "concept" play.

One is the "indie" style, which, of D&D editions, only 4e embraced. This style gives the player resources (generic ones, or ones that are particular to his/her PC build) that enable the player to make mechanical choices that will realise the concept. Come and Get It is the best known example from 4e. The "through death's eyes" move in Dungeon World is another example ("Name an NPC who will die. The GM will make your vision come true.")

If the resources are very generic, this can become a free descriptor approach (like eg HeroQuest revised; and Cortex+ Heroic comes pretty close) where the descriptor is important for fictional positioning and narration of consequences, but has no bearing on prospects of success. (So eg being a knife fighter compared to an archer is relevant to permissible action declarations given context, but does not effect your likelihood of killing someone if an attack is declared.)

5e (like AD&D 2nd ed before it) eschews this approach for non-magic-users.

The second approach is how 2nd ed AD&D seemed to do it, and is what [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] seems to have in mind when he talks about "GM empowerment". The GM manipulates framing, and possible outcomes, to ensure that the concept is realised. At the limits of this approach mechanics don't matter much, and the PC build is mostly a signal to the GM as to the desired manipulations.

This is the exact antithesis of the "indie" approach.

The third approach is the one that isn't working for the OP: you build your character according to concept, the GM applies the mechanics more-or-less at face value, and we find out whether or not your concept is mechanically viable. I think this can work in systems with a relatively high degree of "sim" in their DNA (eg RQ, RM, Burning Wheel) because those systems will try to reflect eg the fact that, in the real world, you can kill someone by stabbing them with a knife. In D&D, though, I think there is more scope for some concepts to be crowded out by eg the hp and damage dealing rules.

This is another way in which D&D continues to support wargaming - because (outside of 4e) when GMed in a more referee-like fashion it pushes towards "build for function" rather than "build for concept", and that is a very wargame-ish thing to do!
 

Kaine

First Post
I haven't been to this site in nearly 14 years (see join date). I decided to swing by and I find this thread. Has the D&D community at large fallen so far?

Rule #1: Have fun.
Rule #2: The DM is final arbiter at the game table.

Every complaint that I deigned to read (I could not force myself to read past page 6) boils down to a failure of one of these two fundamental rules. I simply cannot wrap my brain around the concept that a thread like this managed to make it past page 1 let alone page 24 and then to find out there are multiples of threads like these floating around. As a DM of nearly 30 years allow me to impart some wisdom:

If your players are out of control, DM's fault. If your party is plowing through content, DM's fault. If your story is completely off kilter... DM's... fault.

I can think of exactly 0 reasonable scenarios/problems at the table that is not the DM's fault. Giving birth or acts of god don't count. The problem isn't 5e, the problem is the guy/gal running the table.

THAT'S the "final word".

/peace
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I haven't been to this site in nearly 14 years (see join date). I decided to swing by and I find this thread. Has the D&D community at large fallen so far?

Rule #1: Have fun.
Rule #2: The DM is final arbiter at the game table.

Every complaint that I deigned to read (I could not force myself to read past page 6) boils down to a failure of one of these two fundamental rules. I simply cannot wrap my brain around the concept that a thread like this managed to make it past page 1 let alone page 24 and then to find out there are multiples of threads like these floating around. As a DM of nearly 30 years allow me to impart some wisdom:

If your players are out of control, DM's fault. If your party is plowing through content, DM's fault. If your story is completely off kilter... DM's... fault.

I can think of exactly 0 reasonable scenarios/problems at the table that is not the DM's fault. Giving birth or acts of god don't count. The problem isn't 5e, the problem is the guy/gal running the table.

THAT'S the "final word".

/peace

lol
 

Oofta

Legend
And that's not a claim that DPR is king. It's a claim about the failure of those archetypes to contribute to play in their main dimension of (possible) contribution.

If someone (you? some other posters?) think that the main contribution a fighter makes to the game is not damage, or some other combat function (like damage soaking or avoidance) that is at least commensurable with damage, then run the argument! I think it could be interesting.
The main contribution of a fighter is damage, but DPR doesn't matter? DPR is King is never even implicitly implied? I don't even know what you're trying to say any more. :confused:

In addition, the basic assumption that a dagger thrower is not viable is fundamentally flawed in my personal experience. My first D&D character that I played to 20th level did it (with tweaks, see below) and it was just fine. A rogue/fighter with two-weapon and the dual wielder, he was flexible and could do melee or range. I doubled my chance of getting sneak attack and did a little extra damage to boot. Because of other party members I got in opportunity attacks now and then. I had a blast and contributed damage as well as anyone else in the party barring the occasional meteor storm.

About those tweaks. Because my PC was a dwarf, my DM let me use light and war hammers instead of daggers and rapiers and still get my sneak attack (he had higher strength than dex if it matters).

I did eventually (14th level I think?) take sharp shooter (again, with permission from my DM) and saw my damage increase pretty dramatically. It also wasn't as much fun in many ways because I rarely went into melee again. :(

Moral of the story? As far as I'm concerned the dual dagger guy is fine, even without SS. Want to do even more damage? Talk to your DM about letting you use sharp shooter with daggers. If you allow the feat into your game in the first place it doesn't hurt anything.
 

Aldarc

Legend
13th Age does this, it works quite well.
Its perfect for many cinematic and genre based games where two things take precedence over "reslity"

1 its the character that is the danger, not the weapon.

2 the choice of weapon is a stylistic and thematic character (cultural) or stylistic nod.

It can work quite well for rpgs where crunch and fiddlies are less in spotlight.
I believe that this is also how Dungeon World does it.
 



TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The main contribution of a fighter is damage, but DPR doesn't matter? DPR is King is never even implicitly implied? I don't even know what you're trying to say any more. :confused:
You realize there's a broad area between DPR doesn't matter, and DPR is king, right? DPR is important. For martial classes without spells, it's their single largest contribution. But that doesn't mean DPR is king. "DPR is king" would mean that only measurements of DPR would count towards measuring the effectiveness of a class.

And if that isn't what you think "DPR is king" means, that's because "DPR is king" is a ****ty statement that is begging to be misinterpreted. :)
 

I always thought of the wizard more as a battlefield controller and utility kit rather than damage dealer.

It has that aspect as well, but I am going back to 1st edition, where the Magic User easily out-damaged all other classes (and out crowd-controlled most of them) in exchange for being extremely squishy and resource limited.

The wizard (which these days includes sorcerer and warlock) still out-damages other classes, but the margin is narrower, in exchange for not dying if a goblin sneezes on them.
 

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