What no Luke Cage love?

[Umbran]

I am also more optimistic now for the next Iron Fist, because Danny Rand seemed good this time.

Here's my thoughts on Danny. Make of them what you will.

The main problem with Danny Rand in his first season is not that he's a bad character. It is that many folks don't *like* him. In an interpersonal way, to many he's unlikable. He's a *well acted* unlikable person.

I look at Iron Fist, and at Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, and I see them trying to do the same thing with Danny as with them. Make him *real*. Consider - he was an adolescent rich kid (so, whether he realized it or not, kinda spoiled and privileged, and that's not his fault) who lost his parents in a violent tragic event, and then was immediately isolated from his home culture and physically abused for a decade or so.

Are you telling me this history should result in a person you're going to *like*, at least before he gets his bearings from coming back to the rest of the world?

Jessica Jones had a traumatic backstory too. And left her a violent alcoholic a-hole who treates everyone around her with contempts, and we let that slide, perhaps because alcoholism is normalized. Danny is a bit off putting, and we condemn him for it?

Just for thought. I'm waiting to see his second season to see if it bears up with this thought.

 

[Tonguez]

Here's my thoughts on Danny. Make of them what you will.

The main problem with Danny Rand in his first season is not that he's a bad character. It is that many folks don't *like* him. In an interpersonal way, to many he's unlikable. He's a *well acted* unlikable person.

I look at Iron Fist, and at Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, and I see them trying to do the same thing with Danny as with them. Make him *real*. Consider - he was an adolescent rich kid (so, whether he realized it or not, kinda spoiled and privileged, and that's not his fault) who lost his parents in a violent tragic event, and then was immediately isolated from his home culture and physically abused for a decade or so.

Are you telling me this history should result in a person you're going to *like*, at least before he gets his bearings from coming back to the rest of the world?

Jessica Jones had a traumatic backstory too. And left her a violent alcoholic a-hole who treates everyone around her with contempts, and we let that slide, perhaps because alcoholism is normalized. Danny is a bit off putting, and we condemn him for it?

Just for thought. I'm waiting to see his second season to see if it bears up with this thought.

nah, the problem with Danny is all the things they didnt show us. His character wasnt so much 'weird rich kid raised in a zen temple' as it was clueless prat making grandiose claims without any back up. Th\ey didnt show us KunLun, they didnt show us a dragon, his personality was bland and his fight skills were really terrible (in LC2 they were shot so that you couldnt really see tell, but I do hope he has improved for his real next round.)

We don't need to like Danny but we do need to beleive that he was the spoilt rich kid who became a zen master

 

[Imaculata]

Jessica Jones had a traumatic backstory too. And left her a violent alcoholic a-hole who treates everyone around her with contempts, and we let that slide, perhaps because alcoholism is normalized. Danny is a bit off putting, and we condemn him for it?

I think we accept Jessica, because her contempt for everything around her is entertaining. I don't think it has anything to do with alcoholism being normalized.

 

[Umbran]

I think we accept Jessica, because her contempt for everything around her is entertaining. I don't think it has anything to do with alcoholism being normalized.

As if her contempt and her alcoholism are not linked? Interesting position. Also interesting to think that contempt for everything and everyone around her is an "entertaining" trait in someone who can snap someone's neck without any effort to speak of.

You're free to think what you will. I will not try to disabuse you of the notion.

 

[Derren]

Its not Dannys background that makes him unlikeable, the same background works for Arrow, but his rather whiny and often times downright stupid (Defenders finale) personality. It doesn't help that the so called martial arts master doesn't fight better than all the sidekicks (once even getting defeated by a single no-name guy). If his hand wouldn't be glowing you would hardly notice that he is supposed to be a superhero.

Thankfully his appearance in LC is short so he does not has the time to do something stupid again. All he is there for is 1 fight and to quote fortune cookies.
But LC has other problems. As it was already mentioned it is much too long for the story and it isn't helped that you sometimes feel like watching MTV with all the music clips. The combat is also rather boring, but that is because of LCs superpower. Invulnerability is inherently boring. Either it works and there is never any tension or it doesn't and LC is just a random guy.
They went with the boring option as they even remove his previous invulnerability.

In the beginning of the series he even highlights this by asking the enemies why they are even trying. That is of course quickly forgotten and we get fight after fight where LC just casually walks around punching people while no one can harm him. Like a Bud Spencer movie but without all the comedy.

The series also has some logical flaws. Remember season 1 how everyone freaked out that there is a invulnerable guy running around and how far the police went to stop him? Now this guy gets beaten down and no one cares who the one who defeated him is. They don't even bother to find out his name.

Season 2 also copies too much from Season 1. You again have the villain switch and you also have the same "previously neutral person gets set up as the next villain" in the end.
The only upside is that Season 3 might be a bit different because of where LC ends up, but thats it.

Season 2 is never really terrible, but I can't really think of a reason why I would recommend watching it.

 

[Morrus]

Finished it. I liked it much more than s1. Its main problem is that the title character is the least interesting thing in the show - he’s kinda bland. But everyone else is awesome.

 

[Umbran]

Finished it. I liked it much more than s1. Its main problem is that the title character is the least interesting thing in the show - he’s kinda bland. But everyone else is awesome.

Unfortunately, what typically makes a character interesting are their flaws. Too many flaws, and a hero ceases to be a hero.

 

[Hussar]

Unfortunately, what typically makes a character interesting are their flaws. Too many flaws, and a hero ceases to be a hero.

But, I think that's what makes Jessica Jones and Daredevil much better shows. Sure, JJ is an alcoholic, but, it's never "let slide" in the show. It's destructive as all get out. Watching JJ implode is a big part of what makes the show good. Same with Daredevil. His self-destructive tendencies cause so much of the plot. It's a big old dose of catharsis.

And, there's the other point. Both JJ and Daredevil had FANTASTIC bad guys. Season 1 of JJ was probably one of the best shows on TV, as was DD, and a big part of that was Tenant and D'onofrio. DD's second season with the Punisher was excellent too. I watched these shows in large part, on the strength of the antagonists.

But, then you've got Iron Fist. The bad guy is a somewhat smarmy businessman? Ummm, really? I'm not really into watching a superhero show that focuses on boardroom dealings. Who cares? Ultra-rich boy comes back from being lost and spends the season getting his company back. Note, that even if he didn't get the company back, nothing really changes. There's no stakes.

Compare to Iron Man. Again, you have Tony Stark coming back from the dead to take his company back from Stane. Similar plotline. But, the movie works because, well, how much of the movie actually takes place in a boardroom? A couple of scenes? Instead, we get this fantastic movie about Tony Stark becoming Iron Man. Cool. Iron Fist didn't really even bother doing an origins story. He's ALREADY Iron Fist before he starts. Even if he doesn't get his company back, he's still a freaking super hero.

To me, that's why Iron Fist was a total snooze fest. No fantastic combat scenes like in Daredevil (the Old Boy call back with Daredevil fighting his way down the building through the corridors with Punisher was great). No real stakes.

At least Luke Cage had some stakes. Even if they didn't really speak to me. I could still recognize them and empathize. Danny Rand is some spoiled rich kid who gets to be super rich and a superhero. Yay him? I guess?

 

[Umbran]

But, I think that's what makes Jessica Jones and Daredevil much better shows. Sure, JJ is an alcoholic, but, it's never "let slide" in the show. It's destructive as all get out. Watching JJ implode is a big part of what makes the show good.

She doesn't implode *because of the alcohol*, though. The alcohol is presented as a result of her problems, not a cause of them. The alcohol is treated as "self medication" for her other issues, and itself doesn't get in her way - she never loses a fight for being drunk, does she? And I know a number of people who love JJ, and think that her hard-drinking is there to show that she's badass, because ability to hold one's liquor is seen as a sign of strength.

Those are the reasons why I think of it as being normalized - especially the hard-drinking as a sign of strength.

But, then you've got Iron Fist. The bad guy is a somewhat smarmy businessman? Ummm, really? I'm not really into watching a superhero show that focuses on boardroom dealings. Who cares? Ultra-rich boy comes back from being lost and spends the season getting his company back. Note, that even if he didn't get the company back, nothing really changes. There's no stakes.

Before I question your statement here... define what you think qualifies as stakes for me, please?

I will note that what I expect what you are calling the "stakes" are not finalized in the season itself - they carry over into The Defenders. I'd say there are loads of personal and emotional stakes in Iron Fist

Iron Fist didn't really even bother doing an origins story. He's ALREADY Iron Fist before he starts. Even if he doesn't get his company back, he's still a freaking super hero.

I'd say three things here:

1) Iron Fist does have the problem of cultural appropriation. While they do address that in the series, I think extended sequences of the culture of K'un-Lun would shift them back into problematic territory.

2) Traditional origin stories are overrated overdone. Did you forget that JJ didn't do hers until Season 2? They even hung a lampshade on it when JJ and LUke Cage meet - "You? Accident.
And you? Experiment," and they moved on.

3) Danny has super-human abilities. But he's not a hero when he shows up in NYC. It is over the course of the series that he struggles between his own internal desires and issues, and doing the right thing for the right reasons. We might say that he's a hero by the end of his season, but he wasn't before. It is because of that becoming that he was able to be of just to Luke Cage in his second season.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Felt the season was a little long, but the last five minutes of the last episode are probably the best minutes of all the Marvel Netflix series.

AR