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Is Ranged really better than Melee?

clearstream

(He, Him)
You keep on brining up GWM and SS+CE here and that has no place here. I will not discuss it here as it's not important to the discussion I started the thread to have. Would it not be better to start your own thread on fixing GWM+SS if that's truly what you desire to talk about?

***Not every thread has to revolve around GWM and SS
A digression into that wasn't intended. I meant more that in practice ranged and melee seem moderately well balanced in 5e - once class features, spells, and scenarios are taken into account - with those feats perhaps the sole exception.
 

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TigerStripedDog

First Post
I think right out of the book that is certainly true - and it is made worse by DM's that ignore partial and full cover (which enemies should be seeking), as well as ignoring restrictions to ranges, firing into combat, and firing at enemies that are right next to the characters. Make sure you know these rules - and if you have a party that is abusing ranged combat, punish them by using NPC's that will take advantage of these weaknesses.

Tiger
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Your post that started this thread did not stipulate the exclusion of feats. But are Fighting Styles off the table then? You keep shifting the goal posts, so it is unclear what you are really arguing for.

Even without feats, Fighting Styles create the separation between 2H, Ranged, TWF, and 1H (in roughly that order depending on the tier).

To answer your thread's question: Is ranged better than melee? The answer is both simple and complicated. Ranged is always better until it isn't. It is that simple. In the rules as written, it is so dependent upon the scenario and the opposition, that you cannot create a general case for it.

At higher tiers when opponents can teleport at will, ranged really becomes iffy as a strategy since maintaining range is almost impossible. In lower tiers range is much easier to maintain. But opponents that can fly, earthglide, go ethereal, have high movement speeds, have ranged attacks themselves, spell snipers, etc. can play havoc on a ranged strategy.

For example, I ran a game about a year ago with all 20th level characters. They were facing a bunch of devils and a tarrasque. Everyone had the ability to fly as well. None of the characters were able to maintain range and feats like Polearm Master and Sentinel were useless. In that battle the "ranged" attack that dominated was Magic Missile. The fighters with action surge, 2H weapons, and GWM were the largest damage dealers followed by the wizards and sorcerers. The bow wielding characters' main contribution was their hit points and taking attack pressure off the other characters.

So again the answer is that range is better until it isn't.

My players are about to enter a situation (the are 3rd level) in which ranged looks really good -- a room full of skeletons that cannot leave it. However, they skeletons all regenerate and cannot be killed unless someone actually goes into the room and disables some devices. There are too many skeletons (twelve) for them to just keep pounding on them from outside the room with ranged attacks. Since the skeletons also have shortbows it makes a purely ranged battle a losing strategy. Since the skeletons are around a large pit, shoving and grappling become a viable strategy.

I also make my players keep track of ammunition (something I don't think has be mentioned as a downside to ranged) and they only have about 60 rounds of ammo between them because they just survived a shipwreck. A ranged battle with the skeletons will quickly deplete that.

As a DM I try to create situations in which every character choice has a chance to shine -- ranged, melee (twf, 2h, 1h, etc), spells, and just character problem solving.

Ranged IMHO, only really has a chance to shine if playing with a "grid" and "miniatures" (we use Roll20). When playing in "the theater of the mind", like Chris Perkins' games on Dice, Camera, Action, ranged loses much of its nuance.

Otherwise, the only way to compare them is through looking at Damage per Round. I created a spreadsheet to do that for all of the different scenarios (including with and without feats) at all target ACs. That discussion was in the other thread about TWF a few weeks ago. The conclusion was ranged is good at dealing damage, but not a good as 2H, again depending on the tier.

At least you stopped talking about GWM and SS. That’s a start I suppose.

Of course it’s a given that in any given situation ranged or melee can be better. Thanks for stating the obvious. The question is that if you have a team with melee PC’s And ranged PC’s, would it be better to increase the number of melee PC’s or ranged PC’s in order to prevent PC death.

All ranged and all melee parties were never the question as we all agree that’s just not how d&d gets played. There is always a mix of range and melee.

We also all tend to agree that the melee pc’s tend to take the brunt of attacks. The most likely case for enemy focus fire on a PC is having 1 melee PC engaging in combat while the rest of the ranged PC’s stay back as far as possible. That generally places melee enemies with nothing to attack except the single melee PC. That’s much worse, in terms of chance for of death than having the chance for that damage to be spread around 2 melee PC’s, and using some basic tactics to increase that chance.

What I’m saying above is obvious right? So then any discussion about ranged vs melee has to not only look at how the PC’s damage the enemies but also how the enemies damage the PC’s. That’s something your ranged is superior side ignores. You do that in many ways such as by looking at ranged only parties. Such as by only ever looking at encounters starting at very favorable distances for ranged heavy parties. Etc.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I think right out of the book that is certainly true - and it is made worse by DM's that ignore partial and full cover (which enemies should be seeking), as well as ignoring restrictions to ranges, firing into combat, and firing at enemies that are right next to the characters. Make sure you know these rules - and if you have a party that is abusing ranged combat, punish them by using NPC's that will take advantage of these weaknesses.

Tiger

There is no restriction on firing into combat.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
AThe question is that if you have a team with melee PC’s And ranged PC’s, would it be better to increase the number of melee PC’s or ranged PC’s in order to prevent PC death.

All ranged and all melee parties were never the question as we all agree that’s just not how d&d gets played. There is always a mix of range and melee.
I've experimented a bit with this, and must certainly add the caveat that (at least at my table) players tend to play what they feel drawn to. They do ask one another things like "What will you play? Oh, I better think about an X or Y then", but it always seems quite ad-hoc to me and not really planned for efficiency or anything like that.

With that caveat, I think an ideal* and also likely to be chosen mix is something like: 1-2 melee, 1-2 ranged (includes half-casters), 1 full-caster (either divine or arcane), 0-1 stealth/skillful character. That 1 full-caster is often an omission, yet experience and testing suggest that it's a pillar role. A big part of why this is ideal is its resilience: it can deal with a very wide range of scenarios.



*Given DMs can and do shift level of challenge to match their groups, what does "ideal" mean anyway? I think it is most clearly defined as picturing a difficulty curve that arcs over each encounter threshold. A whimsical party is down on the left-hand side of the apex, so they experience the encounter close to its narrative description, e.g. "Deadly" does mean deadly. An "ideal" party is somewhere right of the apex, so they experience the encounter to be weaker than its description, e.g. "Hard" feels more like easy or medium. "Ideal" in this sense isn't a comment on fun or righteousness, it's only a comment on experienced difficulty relative to game baselines. Since they can deal with more, ideal parties might well level in less time (their DM faces them with tougher encounters, that are worth more XP). That doesn't matter in the end, because the whimsical party is still having fun.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I tend to lump cleric into melee and wizard into ranged. That tends to be the way they are played most often in my experience
 

IDS is even better with GWM: Weapon damage much much greater and "cleave" more than compensates for the second attack given by TWF. Now if Dual Wielder changed the second attack from a Bonus action to part of the normal action then I would be more convinced.
Can depend on what you are fighting. Lots of minions that you're pretty sure that you can reliably hit and kill in one or two blows are where using GWM would shine.
However the more damage (such as from IDS) that you deal with a blow without the GWM option, the more that taking the -5 to hit is going to hurt your damage output.

For the Swashbuckler TWF works well, but I am not convinced even a little bit that TWF with rogue is worthwhile compared to ranged.
As with most things: it is a tradeoff. The greater damage potential of a TWF rogue vs less risk of a ranged rogue.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The question shouldn't be "are melee or ranged more important" but "Once you've got your tanks and your healers, does it make sense to go ranged or melee." I think the answer is too obviously ranged, and it should be a harder choice.

I think the answer is only obviously ranged for a small subset of the player base. Ie, those with the system mastery to see a significant difference between the two, and play experiences that don't challenge the idea of the archer being fairly safe. At least the melee is nearer to the healer.

I think one of the problems here is that you are (I believe) comparing "melee heavy" to "ranged heavy", and I'm asking something simpler: if you've got the basic roles covered, is it more effective to go melee or ranged. Let's say we've got a fighter tank, a melee cleric, an archer rogue, and a wizard. I want to play a Ranger. Should I be a melee ranger or an archer ranger? From a pure optimization standpoint I think there is no question that I should go ranged. The only reason to go melee is just that I think it's more fun. (Which is plenty of reason, of course. But I shouldn't have to sacrifice effectiveness for that.)

I'm not sure it's accurate to describe it as sacrificing effectiveness. Or, rather, it's misleading to put it that way, even if it is technically correct (which I'm not really convinced of).

That is, the melee ranger is very effective (once you get to at least level 3). The team isn't losing anything meaningful by having a melee ranger rather than a ranged one.

Thing is, the ranged character is a target. An important target. You don't leave the artillery standing if you can help it. Stopping them is more important than dogpiling the tank, tbh. The Wizard is higher priority if the party has one, but if your own artillery and skirmishers can mitigate the wizard's efficacy, it's worthwhile to send a skulker to try and deal with the archer.

The archer is lonely out there, if they keep a long distance, or they're in immediate danger by being within spell range. The sword ranger is right there in the mix. Even better if it's a rogue you're making the melee vs range choice with, since melee rogues are harder to escape from. But, the lack of mobility boosts for most rangers is a ranger problem, not a melee problem.
 

Satyrn

First Post
This thread makes me want to play a dwarven fighter with a 10 Str and 18 dex, dual wielding rapiers or using a long bow while decked out in plate.

Ranged and melee, and a fantastic AC with the Defense fighting style.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
This thread makes me want to play a dwarven fighter with a 10 Str and 18 dex, dual wielding rapiers or using a long bow while decked out in plate.

Ranged and melee, and a fantastic AC with the Defense fighting style.
I know exactly what you mean and believe there is plenty of scope in the game for versatile characters who are not hard-out optimised, but good in a variety of circumstances.

Obviously there are some trade offs. The strongest ranged is with SS and clearly Archery style benefits that - both directly and via the need for more Superiority dice spent on Precision (if going that route). Yet I agree with taking Defense instead... it just means the ranged isn't so powerful. There's also a bit of fiddliness with switching weapons. I played an Eldritch Knight and I have to say, when it comes to switching to javelins, being able to drop a weapon and bonus action it back to hand later is neat!

Maybe Dual Wield longswords or battleaxes, going the Strength route? You need 15 for plate anyway, and the feat allows them. Carry a shield strapped to your back for tougher fights.
 

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