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Is Ranged really better than Melee?

Dual-wielding Paladin drops off a bit in Tier 2 (still good for nova though), but picks right back up in Tier 3 with Improved Divine Smite effectively making up for lack of TWF Style and then some.

And it's always good for the Rogue, even if you don't use it every round. You want to keep that option on the table.
 

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clearstream

(He, Him)
Melee Tier 2 vs 3 Ogre Zombies, 2 Ghasts, 1 Ettin TUNNELS
------------------------------------------------------------------

DWR1 41h
GWB1 100c
DSr1 Haste
1HS1 positioning

DWR2 33h
GWB2 55c
DSr2 Misty Step
1HS2 11

DWR3 19
GWB3 46
DSr3 19
1HS3 13

DWR4 8h
GWB4 55c
DSr4 18
1HS4 10

DWR4 33 ended

DWR 23 wnds, rest none

This felt very, very comfortable for the all melee group, which comprised - Half-Orc GWM Totem Barbarian, Dwarf Shieldmaster BM Fighter, Elf DW Hunter Ranger, Draconic Sorcerer. I likely missed a few Haste attacks, and the DW Ranger was a bit whimsical. I wanted to test my "The two-weapon fighting attack you make with the melee weapon in your other hand, doesn't require a bonus action." version of Dual Wielder and it feels good in play.

Melee could clearly be discomforted in the open, say against fliers or ranged opponents. In tunnels they're very happy. Cleave and Horde Breaker procced 3/4 turns. Really at no point did the group feel stressed. Again, it was marked how potent the single full caster in the group is.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
I think most of us here have jumped aboard to ranged is superior to melee in 5e bandwagon and for good reason. Good ranged characters typically have:
#1 Higher Initiative
#2 Better ability to focus fire on enemies
#3 Nearly the same damage output as melee builds
#4 Ability to kite enemies / kill them before they get into their effective ranges

There's probably some unmentioned advantages as well. But the same point ultimately exists, if I'm looking for the most individually useful and survivable character then a ranged one definitely appears to edge out a melee one.

That said D&D is a team based game and while melee characters don't appear individually better they provide a number of team benefits that only become apparent when looking at the team.
#1 More melee characters better spreads damage around. Spreading damage around saves lives. This is accomplished both by proximity and the threat of opportunity attacks.
#2 Opportunity attacks can cause significantly more damage if enemies choose to take them.
#3 Typically higher AC or other damage reduction abilities so even if they are being attacked they tend to last longer than their ranged brethren
#4 Slightly higher damage

All in all I think these factors should cause us to reevaluate ranged superiority over melee superiority. Thoughts? Opinions?
I think what you mooted here was valuable, and that there are two ways to answer your question.

First, in isolation without considering class features and spells, X ranged damage is worth more than X melee damage. There's nothing in the general system that balances that. Opportunity Attacks sound like they could on paper, but do not... in part because they tend to deliver spread damage.

Second though, and far more importantly, once you consider class features and spells melee is worth the same as ranged (and both benefit greatly from putting a full-caster in the mix). Melee classes tend to have high effective HP. Ranged classes tend to have peels and escapes. In many instances ranged can pull ahead on effective damage due to up-time and focus-fire, but melee is far more resilient in a much wider variety of scenarios. For instance a Deadly encounter in a tight space will probably leave ranged characters dying in its wake.

The only exception is CEx/SS versus GWM. Both are truly fierce, but for reasons already discussed elsewhere the Hand Crossbow wielder wins out. The correction IMO is simply make SS power-attacks require Heavy ranged weapons, just as GWM power-attacks require Heavy melee weapons. That brings down the ranged power-attacks by one, and puts the styles about on par.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I think what you mooted here was valuable, and that there are two ways to answer your question.

First, in isolation without considering class features and spells, X ranged damage is worth more than X melee damage. There's nothing in the general system that balances that. Opportunity Attacks sound like they could on paper, but do not... in part because they tend to deliver spread damage.

Second though, and far more importantly, once you consider class features and spells melee is worth the same as ranged (and both benefit greatly from putting a full-caster in the mix). Melee classes tend to have high effective HP. Ranged classes tend to have peels and escapes. In many instances ranged can pull ahead on effective damage due to up-time and focus-fire, but melee is far more resilient in a much wider variety of scenarios. For instance a Deadly encounter in a tight space will probably leave ranged characters dying in its wake.

The only exception is CEx/SS versus GWM. Both are truly fierce, but for reasons already discussed elsewhere the Hand Crossbow wielder wins out. The correction IMO is simply make SS power-attacks require Heavy ranged weapons, just as GWM power-attacks require Heavy melee weapons. That brings down the ranged power-attacks by one, and puts the styles about on par.

You keep on brining up GWM and SS+CE here and that has no place here. I will not discuss it here as it's not important to the discussion I started the thread to have. Would it not be better to start your own thread on fixing GWM+SS if that's truly what you desire to talk about?

***Not every thread has to revolve around GWM and SS
 

D

dco

Guest
Depends on the situation, if you always fight outdoors with plenty of visibility and no obstacles sure, if you always fight inside of buildings with normal rooms then no.
 

WaterRabbit

Explorer
A

In all tiers.

As we demonstrated in the other thread, TWF cannot compete with GWM and SS past tier 2 - it isn't even close. So no, not all tiers.

Dual-wielding Paladin drops off a bit in Tier 2 (still good for nova though), but picks right back up in Tier 3 with Improved Divine Smite effectively making up for lack of TWF Style and then some.

And it's always good for the Rogue, even if you don't use it every round. You want to keep that option on the table.

IDS is even better with GWM: Weapon damage much much greater and "cleave" more than compensates for the second attack given by TWF. Now if Dual Wielder changed the second attack from a Bonus action to part of the normal action then I would be more convinced.

For the Swashbuckler TWF works well, but I am not convinced even a little bit that TWF with rogue is worthwhile compared to ranged.
 

WaterRabbit

Explorer
You keep on brining up GWM and SS+CE here and that has no place here. I will not discuss it here as it's not important to the discussion I started the thread to have. Would it not be better to start your own thread on fixing GWM+SS if that's truly what you desire to talk about?

***Not every thread has to revolve around GWM and SS

So you just want to stick your fingers in your ears and cover your eyes and pretend they don't exist? ;)

They exist and are probably allowed in more games than not as restricting players is always difficult. I believe they are allowed in Adventure's League, so that means they make up a large part of the game. It would be just as difficult to assume no multi-classing as well (even though I personally think it creates more problems that feats).
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
As we demonstrated in the other thread, TWF cannot compete with GWM and SS past tier 2 - it isn't even close. So no, not all tiers.



IDS is even better with GWM: Weapon damage much much greater and "cleave" more than compensates for the second attack given by TWF. Now if Dual Wielder changed the second attack from a Bonus action to part of the normal action then I would be more convinced.

For the Swashbuckler TWF works well, but I am not convinced even a little bit that TWF with rogue is worthwhile compared to ranged.

Why are you talking about GWM and SS?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
So you just want to stick your fingers in your ears and cover your eyes and pretend they don't exist? ;)

They exist and are probably allowed in more games than not as restricting players is always difficult. I believe they are allowed in Adventure's League, so that means they make up a large part of the game. It would be just as difficult to assume no multi-classing as well (even though I personally think it creates more problems that feats).

Pretend they don't exist? I've done more analysis on them than most here. I'm one of the key reasons people realized the power of precision attack with SS. It was my threads that started that analysis and conversation and ended up being the nudge most here needed to realize the power there. You see, at that time the common belief was that precision was terrible and you should not use it. After at least 1 long thread and maybe more, that perception has changed. So I totally understand their power and probably moreso than you.

That said, solely looking at PC's with GWM or SS in a conversation about melee vs ranged likely just muddies the waters because
1. You have now limited the conversation to a subset of ranged and melee builds.
2. You are now not just comparing ranged vs melee but instead ranged vs SS vs. melee + GWM and if SS > GWM (which is commonly believed) then it could easily be true that ranged < melee but because SS > GWM that ranged + SS > melee + GWM. Thus looking at the case you want us to, ends up being an inconclusive method for answered the questions about ranged vs melee.

I do think it's important to look at those feats at some point, but only after the general case is established. They may be an exception to the general case or they may not be, but until we know what is going on generally they are just going to muddy the waters.
 

WaterRabbit

Explorer
Why are you talking about GWM and SS?

Your post that started this thread did not stipulate the exclusion of feats. But are Fighting Styles off the table then? You keep shifting the goal posts, so it is unclear what you are really arguing for.

Even without feats, Fighting Styles create the separation between 2H, Ranged, TWF, and 1H (in roughly that order depending on the tier).

To answer your thread's question: Is ranged better than melee? The answer is both simple and complicated. Ranged is always better until it isn't. It is that simple. In the rules as written, it is so dependent upon the scenario and the opposition, that you cannot create a general case for it.

At higher tiers when opponents can teleport at will, ranged really becomes iffy as a strategy since maintaining range is almost impossible. In lower tiers range is much easier to maintain. But opponents that can fly, earthglide, go ethereal, have high movement speeds, have ranged attacks themselves, spell snipers, etc. can play havoc on a ranged strategy.

For example, I ran a game about a year ago with all 20th level characters. They were facing a bunch of devils and a tarrasque. Everyone had the ability to fly as well. None of the characters were able to maintain range and feats like Polearm Master and Sentinel were useless. In that battle the "ranged" attack that dominated was Magic Missile. The fighters with action surge, 2H weapons, and GWM were the largest damage dealers followed by the wizards and sorcerers. The bow wielding characters' main contribution was their hit points and taking attack pressure off the other characters.

So again the answer is that range is better until it isn't.

My players are about to enter a situation (the are 3rd level) in which ranged looks really good -- a room full of skeletons that cannot leave it. However, they skeletons all regenerate and cannot be killed unless someone actually goes into the room and disables some devices. There are too many skeletons (twelve) for them to just keep pounding on them from outside the room with ranged attacks. Since the skeletons also have shortbows it makes a purely ranged battle a losing strategy. Since the skeletons are around a large pit, shoving and grappling become a viable strategy.

I also make my players keep track of ammunition (something I don't think has be mentioned as a downside to ranged) and they only have about 60 rounds of ammo between them because they just survived a shipwreck. A ranged battle with the skeletons will quickly deplete that.

As a DM I try to create situations in which every character choice has a chance to shine -- ranged, melee (twf, 2h, 1h, etc), spells, and just character problem solving.

Ranged IMHO, only really has a chance to shine if playing with a "grid" and "miniatures" (we use Roll20). When playing in "the theater of the mind", like Chris Perkins' games on Dice, Camera, Action, ranged loses much of its nuance.

Otherwise, the only way to compare them is through looking at Damage per Round. I created a spreadsheet to do that for all of the different scenarios (including with and without feats) at all target ACs. That discussion was in the other thread about TWF a few weeks ago. The conclusion was ranged is good at dealing damage, but not a good as 2H, again depending on the tier.
 

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