Is Ranged really better than Melee?

[FrogReaver]

H
Why no kiting, i.e. un-converging? The ranged PCs in my weekly campaign un-converge like crazy!

The above comment makes me feel like you are not even reading my posts...

The answer is obvious. They have converged on your melee ally. Melee PC's don't kite.

 

[WaterRabbit]

You don't need the dual wielder feat to effectively dual wield

You don't need the dual wielder feat to dual wield. However, without the TWF-style and Dual Wield you are way behind the damage curve compared to ranged and two-handed -- and just barely above sword and board. So I guess it depends on what you mean by effective?

 

[FrogReaver]

You don't need the dual wielder feat to dual wield. However, without the TWF-style and Dual Wield you are way behind the damage curve compared to ranged and two-handed -- and just barely above sword and board. So I guess it depends on what you mean by effective?

For a PC like a fighter, he needs TWF to effectively dual wield. However, other PC's like Paladins and rogues can dual wield effectively without the need for TWF.

 

[FrogReaver]

Hmm, I don't recall agreeing that. Perhaps I gave the wrong impression. I think looking at fully ranged is essential, notwithstanding that it doesn't reflect what I've normally had at my table.

I don't think that discussing something that occurs at virtually no table could ever be described as essential. Heck it shouldn't even be described as useful.

 

[WaterRabbit]

For a PC like a fighter, he needs TWF to effectively dual wield. However, other PC's like Paladins and rogues can dual wield effectively without the need for TWF.

For a rogue perhaps, though as discussed a melee rogue is not going to be as effective as a ranged rogue.

Once the paladin is out of smite then his TWF drops off completely since they don't have access to even the TWF Fighting style which is more critical for TWF than Dual Wield for damage output.

 

[FrogReaver]

For a rogue perhaps, though as discussed a melee rogue is not going to be as effective as a ranged rogue.

Once the paladin is out of smite then his TWF drops off completely since they don't have access to even the TWF Fighting style which is more critical for TWF than Dual Wield for damage output.

Depends on your goal right? To gun down an important enemy as fast as possible the dual wield paladin works much better than greatsword or sword and shield even though those will do slightly more damage throughout the day.

 

[clearstream]

Unless you have a combat simulator that actually works for group vs group with programmable tactics and all then I don't think you can actually resolve this question by playing through a few human simulations. There's to much randomness in the dice rolls themselves to reveal anything interesting outside many many playthroughs and since the hit and damage rolls can be either high or low, etc then there's a lot room for slightly changing tactics midgame to adjust to the current situation, which can greatly skew such simulations if you end up doing any particular tactic at a time I'm not advocating for it.

I think using a mix of experience at the table, statistical modelling, and plays-through, gives a more plausible picture than experience at the table and imagination alone. Crucially, plays-through allow characters and tactics to be experimented with that players might not often choose. Your point about randomness in the dice rolls is a fair one, and that can be somewhat addressed with the statistical modelling.

With that in mind I trialled four 8th level ranged characters against a Hard encounter from KFC - 1 Ettin, 2 Ghasts and 3 Ogre Zombies. The characters were a Wood Elf SS H Ranger, a Wood Elf CEx BM Fighter, a Half-Elf Agonizing AF/T Warlock, and a Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer. I didn't stack SS with CEx for all out cheese, instead I used my Heavy weapons only version of Sharpshooter. Stats were points buy. No magical items. The play-through drove a few observations and intuitions.

• Ranged characters can have more ways than one might expect to avoid being pinned down. Warlocks can choose Repelling, Lethargy, Misty Escape, Misty Step, even Hellish Rebuke in a way does the job. Battlemaster Fighters get Menacing Attack of course, and with their Action Surge they can get out from under, or deliver a pile-driver round. Sorcerers can Fly by Tier 2, or Misty Step, Dimension Door, Greater Invis., Blink and/or Mirror Image (neither needs concentration).
• Target-selection and focus-fire are easily as strong as observed / predicted. Less obvious, but immediately clear in a play-through, is the ability to land key c-c effects on targets to juggle position.
• Taking OAs really is the right thing to do as a ranged character. These occasional bashes end up well distributed among that party.
• I think three ranged and one full caster is often going to prove stronger than four ranged. That's something I don't think we've discussed enough: the option to mix ranged with full casters, rather than with melee. Due to the need ranged has to deliver damage as a way of controlling the fight, ranged might not be able to afford two full casters... maybe melee could find an advantage there?
• Hunters Mark and Hex were easier to keep active than anticipated.

The map was 100' by 100' forest, with no room allowed off the edge (i.e. no kiting off the edge allowed). Starting distance was mixed, but around 75'. Here is the damage record.

ABW1 33h
CEF1 30c
SSR1 50m
DSr1 Greater Invis

ABW2 25h
CEF2 60cac
SSR2 49m
DSr2 16

ABW3 48h
CEF3 36cc
SSR3 36m
DSr3 17

ABW4 34h
CEF4 7 ended

ABW 0 wnds
CEF 7 wnds
SSR 12 wnds
DSr 0 wnds

What next? It feels like a deadly encounter might result in enough pressure for a dog-piling effect to come into play. So that should be tried. I also think a two melee, two full caster party would be worth trying. Certainly a dungeon map should be tried as that has been predicted to have a strong impact (one intuition is that a full caster to put down some c-c could play a significant part.) On the other hand, my experience is that for practical reasons rather than honest ones, kiting is often more curtailed than the imagined environment could reasonably allow.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Depends on your goal right? To gun down an important enemy as fast as possible the dual wield paladin works much better than greatsword or sword and shield even though those will do slightly more damage throughout the day.

Only in Tier 1 play and only with a build for that. After Tier 1 TWF loses its luster.

Also, even with the Rogue build it is iffy due to the competition with other Bonus actions.

Don't get me wrong, I like TWF, but it isn't the strongest option.

 

[clearstream]

Out of interest trialled the same ranged party in a twisty corridor. Starting distance around 40', narrow sections of 10' wide with a maximum of about 40', and foes approaching from both flanks. As before the characters were 8th level - a Wood Elf SS H Ranger, a Wood Elf CEx BM Fighter, a Half-Elf Agonizing AF/T Warlock, and a Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer.

Tier 2 vs 3 Ogre Zombies, 2 Ghasts, 1 Ettin TUNNELS
-----------------------------------------------------------

CEF1 42cac
SSR1 60mh
ABW1 52h
DSr1 Greater Invis

CEF2 30c
SSR2 67mh
ABW2 38h + 40
DSr2 0 Misty Step

CEF3 39cc
SSR3 62mh
ABW3 20
DSr3 8

CEF4 29
SSR4 38m ended

ABW 34 wnds
CEF 0 wnds
SSR 0 wnds
DSr 28 wnds


Damage taken was significantly more. In round two there was a short period, before foes had started falling, where four foes were in contact with three characters (some in multiple contact). Again, it was surprising the peels and escapes ranged characters have available, but had this encounter been at a deadly threshold I believe one or more could have fallen. In posting this, I don't mean to support one or other conclusion, but more to suggest that a narrative where all-ranged gets mobbed and taken apart isn't right. Not even in twisty tunnels, unless one is crafting the environment in order to favour classes one endorses.

 

[FrogReaver]

A

Only in Tier 1 play and only with a build for that. After Tier 1 TWF loses its luster.

Also, even with the Rogue build it is iffy due to the competition with other Bonus actions.

Don't get me wrong, I like TWF, but it isn't the strongest option.

In all tiers.